For Christians: Grace vs. Forgiveness

by AuldSoul 70 Replies latest jw friends

  • whyizit
    whyizit

    I read a sign awhile back that said, "Complicated religion is not of God". I truly believe that. The more I ask my JW friends questions, the more coplicated they try to get, even to the point of throwing the original question out the window and bombarding me with unasked for, unneccessary materials. Just the simple facts, that's all I want.

    Here is the best, most simplistic explanation I have heard on the subject of grace.

    You can't do enough good to earn it. You can't do enough bad to lose it. All you need to do is ACCEPT it.

    Accepting it is the key. If you always feel that every gift you've been given has a string attached, then these are not really gifts. If I give my child a $5 bill, he doesn't tell me he can't accept it, because he hasn't earned it. ("Oh, no! I couldn't possibly accept that. Only if you let me mow the lawn. I'll pay you back...) No, way! He knows it is a true gift. He smiles and thanks me, gives me a hug, tells me he loves me! He accepts the gift. More than that, he cherishes our relationship. If he ignored me or disowned me, I couldn't give him any gifts. He wouldn't be receptive. (Yet, I would still love him.)

    That's why I think Jesus told us to come to Him like children. They know how to accept a gift.

    Don't know if this is helpful to you, but it was very helpful to me. As well as many of the verses you cited. Especially Rom.8:15 and Gal. 4:6. I'm not on the outside looking in. I'm part of the family. I can call God my Father. Just like Jesus taught, and like Jesus did. I never called my earthly Dad by his first name. That was what everyone else called him. I was his child. I had a special relationship with him. I called him Dad. Same deal with God. Through Jesus, I'm adopted, now he's my Dad too. (BTW: My earthly Dad would have been very hurt, if I would have referred to him by his name. He loved being my Dad.)

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    What if one believes, down to the cellular level, that Grace applies to everyone but themself?

    I suppose my question might well revolve around faith. What does it take to believe? How does one make oneself believe?

    Chris

  • Rosalee
    Rosalee

    Big Tex

    If one believes grace (undeserved kindness) is for everyone but oneself ... that person would have to figure out what terrible wrong they did not to deserve this kindness. The only thing I can think of is 'sinning against the Holy Spirit'.

    One makes oneself believe by relying on prayer. There is no other way. It is the intimate relationship with God that exceeds all other ways. One then has to act on their belief also.

  • Open mind
    Open mind

    Rosalee said:

    "Actually ... Terry's demonstration was cute ... credit where credit is due. If one does not believe in the Bible I can see where they would feel this way."

    Nice to hear you say that Rosalee.

    Hope you stick around.

    Open Mind

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex
    If one believes grace (undeserved kindness) is for everyone but oneself ... that person would have to figure out what terrible wrong they did not to deserve this kindness

    I don't know. Being born maybe?

    One makes oneself believe by relying on prayer

    Tried it. It doesn't work. At least for me.

    There is no other way

    Well then I'm screwed. Hey, anyone can have an off lifetime, eh? Maybe I'll do better in the next one.

    It is the intimate relationship with God that exceeds all other ways

    I've heard this numerous times. I do not disbelieve you. In point of fact, rather the opposite. I believe you believe it to be so. But I have not found this to be true in my life. Therefore, logic dictates, the fault must be with me.

    I've said numerous times that I find the atheist philosophy most comforting. They tell me that when I die, that is the end. Oblivion is somewhat more comforting than meeting up with a judgmental God or a CEO-type God who just doesn't give a damn.

    Chris

  • Terry
    Terry
    BTW, your little atheistic story you wrote flatly rejects most of the Scriptures I cited. I doubt you even read my initial post and I am nearly certain you didn't read the Scriptures I cited. Stop begging for attention and respect where you give none.

    I addressed Grace, Forgiveness, God, Justice; the whole nine yards. How much more specific does a fellow have to be?

    Oh-wait! I get it; you want to CONTROL what others post. Ohhhhhh...

    If you narrow the discussion down enough you'll get the outcome you want. (smack!) Why didn't I realize that??

    Sorry.

    (But, you never answered my question about Justice. An oversight on your part maybe?)

  • Terry
    Terry

    The Jews, under the Divine Law given through Moses, had to do what to receive forgiveness of their sins from year to year?

    1.Something

    2.Nothing

    ???????

    Were the sacrifices which were offered during the year automatically done on their behalf or did the Jews actually have to do something to bring about the sacrifice being offered correctly?

    In other words, the Shadow of the Salvation to Come as demonstrated by Jews, either required the sinner to DO something on his own behalf or he didn't.

    Which is it and why?

    Think of the model this way:

    Adam had to DO something to become a sinner, didn't he?

    Adam had to demonstrate he was unfaithful.

    The Jew under the law had todemonstrate he was willing to be faithful to the letter of the law or the correct sacrifice at the right time would NOT have covered his sins. The repentant Jew had to avail himself of the forgiveness by getting his ass in gear: BEHAVIOR=not passive.

    Why do you think God suddenly changed his entire way of doing things in Jesus day?

    Faith is a VERB. It isn't passive.

    Entering into a relationship with God does not mean a passive, silent, lackluster human being is showered with goodies.

    If you automatically get unmerited favor (grace) from God, then; WHY DO YOU HAVE TO PRAY? That is active, not passive.

    Why do you have to get baptised? That is active, not passive. Why can't you forsake the gathering of yourselves together? That is active, not passive.

    UNMERITED FAVOR (grace) is ridiculous for the very reason you do NOT MERIT receiving it. God has to suddenly impute righteousness to you and refuse to see your sin (covering it over and hiding it from view). God does this for a reason and the reason has to involve justice (justice is getting what you deserve).

    Can't you puzzle this out? The original teaching of the (Catholic)Chruch was quite different from Protestant theory.

    Martin Luther stands as the originator of the doctrine of justification by faith alone, for he hoped that in this way he might be able to calm his own conscience , which was in a state of great perturbation, and consequently he took refuge behind the assertion that the necessity of good works over and above mere faith was altogether a pharisaical supposition. Manifestly this did not bring him the peace and comfort for which he had hoped , and at least it brought no conviction to his mind ; for many times, in a spirit of honesty and sheer good nature , he applauded good works, but recognized them only as necessary concomitants, not as efficient dispositions, for justification. This was also the tenor of Calvin's interpretation (Institute, III, 11, 19). Luther was surprised to find himself by his unprecedented doctrine in direct contradiction to the Bible , therefore he rejected the Epistle of St. James as "one of straw" and into the text of St. Paul to the Romans (3:28) he boldly inserted the word alone. This falsification of the Bible was certainly not done in the spirit of the Apostle's teaching, for nowhere does St. Paul teach that faith alone (without charity) will bring justification, even though we should accept as also Pauline the text given in a different context, that supernaturalfaith alone justifies but the fruitless works of the Jewish Law do not.

    In this statement St. Paul emphasizes the fact that grace is purely gratuitous; that no merely natural good works can merit grace; but he does not state that no other acts in their nature and purport predisposing are necessary for justification over and above the requisite faith . Any other construction of the above passage would be violent and incorrect. If Luther's interpretation were allowed to stand, then St. Paul would come into direct contradiction not only with St. James (ii, 24 sqq.), but also with himself; for, except St. John, the favourite Apostle , he is the most outspoken of all Apostles in proclaiming the necessity and excellence of charity over faith in the matter of justification (cf. 1 Corinthians 13:1 sqq. ). Whenever faith justifies it is not faith alone, but faith made operative and replenished by charity (cf. Galatians 5:6 , "fides, quae per caritatem operatur"). In the painest language the Apostle St. James says this: "ex operibus justificatur homo, et non ex fide tantum" ( James 2:2 ); and here, by works, he does not understand the pagan good works to which St. Paul refers in the Epistle to the Romans , or the works done in fulfilment of the Jewish Law , but the-works of salvation made possible by the operation of supernatural grace, which was recognized by St. Augustine (lib. LXXXIII, Q. lxxvi n. 2). In conformity with this interpretation and with this only is the tenor of the Scripturaldoctrine , namely, that over and above faith other acts are necessary for justification, such as fear (Ecclus., i, 28), and hope ( Romans 8:24 ), charity ( Luke 7:47 ), penance with contrition ( Luke 13:3 ; Acts 2:38 ; 3:19 ), almsgiving (Dan., iv, 24; Tob., xii, 9). Without charity and the works of charityfaith is dead. Faith receives life only from and through charity ( James 2:2 ). Only to dead faith (fides informis) is the doctrine applied: "Faith alone does not justify". On the other hand, faith informed by charity (fides formata) has the power of justification. St. Augustine (De Trinit., XV, 18) expresses it pithily thus: "Sine caritate quippe fides potest quidem esse, sed non et prodesse." Hence we see that from the very beginning the Church has taught that not only faith but that a sincere conversion of heart effected by charity and contrition is also requisite for justification--witness the regular method of administering baptism and the discipline of penance in the early Church .

    Passive grace was an invention of Martin Luther.

    Luther came to understand justification as entirely the work of God. Against the teaching of his day that the righteous acts of believers are performed in cooperation with God, Luther wrote that Christians receive that righteousness entirely from outside themselves; that righteousness not only comes from Christ, it actually is the righteousness of Christ, imputed to us (rather than infused into us) through faith. [31] "That is why faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law," he wrote. "Faith is that which brings the Holy Spirit through the merits of Christ." [32] Faith, for Luther, is a gift from God.
    John Calvin added his own twist:

    Calvinism stresses the complete ruin of man's ethical nature against a backdrop of the sovereign grace of God in salvation . It teaches that fallen humanity is morally and spiritually unable to follow God or escape their condemnation before him and that only by divine intervention in which God must change their unwilling hearts can people be turned from rebellion to willing obedience.

    In this view, all people are entirely at the mercy of God, who would be just in condemning all people for their sins but who has chosen to be merciful to some. One person is saved while another is condemned, not because of a foreseen willingness, faith, or any other virtue in the first person, but because God sovereignly chose to have mercy on him. Although the person must believe the gospel and respond to be saved, this obedience of faith is God's gift, and thus God completely and sovereignly accomplishes the salvation of sinners.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Terry, I did answer both your questions about justice. I am somehow unsurprised that you failed to read my responses.

    Brief linguistic test for you, brainiac:

    (a) I have skip.

    (b) I have jump.

    (c) I have defy.

    (d) I have faith.

    Which of the above are grammatically correct?

    Faith is not a verb, ass.

    Terry: Why do you think God suddenly changed his entire way of doing things in Jesus day?

    I don't think God changed his way of doing things. There you go making assumptions again. I think he changed OUR way of doing things.

    You do not have to pray. You can pray. Some had the custom of forsaking the gathering of themselves together, so obviously you did not have to gather together. Your post is full of assumptive resistance to JW-esque dogma and doesn't really respond to this thread or anything I wrote at all.

    Terry: UNMERITED FAVOR (grace) is ridiculous for the very reason you do NOT MERIT receiving it. God has to suddenly impute righteousness to you and refuse to see your sin (covering it over and hiding it from view). God does this for a reason and the reason has to involve justice (justice is getting what you deserve).

    If you really believe this belief is required of Christians no wonder you aren't one. That is a stream of nonsense. And it comes from your foolish (or angry) brain, not mine. You'll not impose that senseless tripe on me and ask me to swallow it. You again, without basis, assert several facts as though everyone should know them. You base them on nothing but your word, which means exactly sh-- to me. Citing Catholicism as an authority in religious matters will likewise fall flat with me, especially if they tend to support your dismal and hopeless view of the Christ figure and of Christianity.

    Terry: I addressed Grace, Forgiveness, God, Justice; the whole nine yards.

    Your story addressed none of those. I never asked for a discussion of justice. Feel free to create a thread discussing it, if you like. The subject here is grace and forgiveness from a Christian perspective. Your story only expressed your perverse and cold interpretation of the hope from the Bible, very much contrary to what I requested. You are not a Christian and the Christian views you post are not your own. Please stop plagiarizing the writings of others, and please stop begging for attention and respect where you give none.

    Shall I similarly plague every thread you create with such crap, Terry?

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    Thanks for posting this, AuldSoul.

    I'm not currently too into Christianity, the wounds are still fresh from JWism.

    But I appreciate the topic.

  • smellsgood
    smellsgood

    AuldSoul, I've never seen you so hot under the collar!

    Terry, really, you do preach enough on your own threads that it really is just redundant to do so anytime anyone brings up beliefs that conflict with your own. Not that I don't think your opinion matters or that you don't have a right to say whatever. It seems like you've got all your gear on, your watch, your bayonet, and your subscription to Skeptics magazine and your out pounding along with a megaphone shouting everything you believe at every opportunity.

    I mean, sometimes you can give it a rest right? I mean, you are part of the MAJORITY here, most people AGREE with your conclusions, so if it's a thread addressing a topic that only a very small MINORITY believe on this board, to you really have to barge in and start bellowing like a drunk Irishman?

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