by MichaelM 101 Replies latest jw friends
Hi Michael,
Your discernment (gut) is correct. The WTS is definitely a high mind-control cult masquerading as Christian. Please don't let them suck you into it. And please listen to the people on this board regarding the WTS. Most of them have BEEN THERE and know what they're talking about.
The Creator LOVES you so much and wants a relationship with you. You don't have to go through a religion or an organization to have this. He'll accept you just as you are.
Warm regards,
Lavendar
MichaelM - There is another thread where there are are some similar concerns being expressed: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/136661/4.ashx . I wont repost my whole reply from there, here except:
In the end, you have to make up your own mind. Do indeed, try to see both sides. Learn the truth, about the truth. Hopefully it will keep you free.
I've seen a few things that almost hint to a trinity, but mostly Jesus shows that hes a completely different person than god and is unknowing as to certain things god knows.. asking him for help, being lower than him, like the mediator in between.
smellsgood: Ok, so where's it clearly in the Bible that Jesus is Michael the Archangel?
"Dying on a steak makes more sense because you actually suffocate when your hands are that high, on a cross your diaphram is fine. Wearing crosses and having pictures and idoltry and whatnot seems kinda goofy too."
smellsgood: Actually, dying in that position is much quicker, and the Bible makes it seem that he was dying for hours. Besides, who CARES if the cross is a Pagan symbol,, it is a HISTORICAL ROMAN PUNISHMENT!!!
grrr... like you said, you were just reading the WT, and yes, their Bible is skewed for their doctrine. For example, in Colossians adding the "he (Jesus) created all [OTHER] things" there is absolutely ZERO justification for this in the Greek. None.
If you want to believe in the Bible, I would suggest you read a Bible that is not printed by the WT, and without "their interpretation" even though they say they are the only ones who can understand the "deeper things" pfft.
Pick up a copy of Ray Franz book "Crisis of Conscience" immediately! Please!
sincerely
smellsgood
Captives of a concept.
It all comes down to "is the WTS appointed by God or not." If they are, do whatever they say, if they aren't, do NOTIHNG they say.
What they teach now has no bearing on the matter, they claim to have been appointed in 1919, so what they taught THEN is all that matters. And no 'new light' can excuse what they taught in 1919 when Jesus supposedly examined them and appointed them.
I like Crisis of conscience, but the first book I usually advise is Captives of a concept, which demolishes the WTS appointment using WTS sources, or Hassan's book on escaping mind control which may raise a JW eyebrow or two, but is not technically 'apostate.'
The truth is out there (cue X-files theme)
Roller
To add to my other post Ithe JW's don't give you any real time for independent study. I like the idea of discipleship they promote but dislike blind obeyance to a man-made organization. Can they attest to being perfect and incorruptable - No. Then they don't deserve to be anything other than a fanatical and as any other cult they can be detrimental to Christianity. 90% of the posters here attesting to be former JW's can't be all wrong.
No hell(Why would a loving god permit eternal torment? it's illogical and hateful)
I agree, I believe God is loving. Hell does not make sense. Neither do Armageddon or the flood.
The trinity seems real iffy
I agree, I believe God is God and Jesus is Jesus. That makes sense to me. I don't think it's right to reject the blood and body of Christ though.
Wearing crosses and having pictures and idoltry and whatnot seems kinda goofy too
I agree, what's the point? I also don't think it's right to disfellowship people and treat them unkindly because they disagree with your religious beliefs.
wanting to please the creator but afraid that one way is the wrong way, and i'm too stupid to find the right way
I don't think you are too stupid to find the right way. The right way is to have your "own" relationship with God. You don't need any man telling you the "right" way to worship God. He is your God, he made you in his image and he loves you. His kindness is undeserved and he is merciful. There is no need to be afraid. Treat God and his creations with love. The way you would want to be treated. God knows your true intentions. Ask yourself what makes sense. Why should a relationship with God need to be complicated?
Jehovah's Witnesses are not the only people that have some beliefs that make sense. Take what you agree with and leave the rest behind is what I say.
The only problem is that you will not be encouraged to form your own belief system and your own opinions as a Jehovah's Witness. You must believe what they believe to be baptized and after that to avoid being shunned. In my opinions, they have taken quite a risk making themselves out to be the absolute authority on truth when it comes to God.
Some nice people are JWs and yes I am sure the guy conducting the study with you is a good friend. He is doing it out of what he believes are good motives in order to help you. However please keep in mind the examples of shunning many have posted on the board. Examples where their entire families have turned their back on their own flesh and blood. Ask yourself what will happen with your new friends if you decide being a JW is not for you. They will ignore you and you will lose your new friends faster than you can imagine.
Furthermore do some reading on "love bombing" www.freeminds.org is a good place to start. When we had new ones studying we were always told to be on our best behavior, harmonious, loving and encouraging. There are many bleaker sides to the watchtower that they will not show you until you have already made the irreversable, yes permanent no taking it back, decision to get baptized as a JW. Other religions will not give you so much trouble if you decide to leave them as the JWs, ask yourselves why they feel it is necessary to have this much control over your life and if that is what you truly want.
Take care, keep questioning.
Greetings MichaelM
Before getting baptized as a Witness in 1971 me and my friends read all of the anti-Watchtower/anti-Witness books that we could find. Then there wasn't much, now there is way too much and most of it, in I opinion, is motivated by personal hurt and rage / or atheist/anti-religious or Evangelical opportunism.
Although I no longer worship with the Witnesses nor believe the Watchtower Society's claim of being God's only channel of truth, I have no animosity against the Witnesses nor against the Society. I don't believe that God has nor need an only channel of truth, other than the Holy Scriptures and those with a heart felt desire to understand it. However many false teachers have arisen and most of them are not Jehovah's Witnesses.
The Witnesses teach that you should test your beliefs, so test theirs as well. There are only a few beliefs that are actually unique to Jehovah's Witnesses, the primary one being that Jehovah God and Jesus Christ appointed the Bible Students affiliated with Joseph F. Rutherford and the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society as the Faith Servant / Only channel of truth. This is dependent on the teaching that { the Kingdom of God/the PAROUSIA - Presence of Christ/the Time of the End } began in 1914.
Re: the above the following sources are not motivated by hatred nor hurt:
www.commentarypress.com, for Raymond Franz's books Crisis of Conscious and In Search of Christian Freedom.
www.captivesofaconcept.com, Don Cameron's book.
All professed Christian Associations / Churches / Fellowships / Organizations, or whatever they call themselves teach both truth and errors and in my view salvation is not dependent on membership in any organization, although fellowship with fellow believers is commanded. The Watchtower Society's greatest flaw is it's absolute authoritarianism, and it practise of punishing anyone who dares to question its policies and teachings. Christianity requires the freeness of speech, free of thought and free will.
I also agree with Raymond Franz that individual Jehovah's Witnesses call be true Christians just as individual members of other churches can.
The Watchtower Society's Faith and Discreet Slave Doctrine on examination you will realize is historically and Biblically unsound.
The no blood transfusion teaching is Biblically unsound, though I suspect that the Governing Body believes that it is correct, this one could cost you your life. (I PERSONALLY WOULD PREFER BLOODLESS SURGERY for HEALTH not RELIGOUS REASONS.)
Although disfellowshiping is a Biblically sound teaching, the Watchtower Society's humiliating policies toward those wishing to be reinstated and the practive of shuning is merciless and pharisaic.
The judicial committe practise of secret trial/tribunal is un-SCRIPTURAL, the only Bible example being the trial of Jesus before the Sanhedren.
I believe that child abusers are in all fellowships, institutions, etc. the only test of an institution is whether injustices are dealt with honestly and openly.
www.religioustolerance.org/witness.htm is a reliable source of information without an anti-witness agenda.
The Basic Teaching of the Witnesses that I believe are true / that is Biblically and Historically Sound are:
God is one being/person, God the Father, Jehovah/Yahweh
Jesus is literally the only begotten / created Son of God; Jesus can only be consider to be God in a representative sense.
The Vindication of the Rightful Sovereignty of Jehovah, God the Father, is the primary issue facing the creation, and the reason why God permits wickedness.
Fall of Man/Need for Ransom.
Man and Woman were created perfect, as mortal, organic,physical souls with the prospect of living forever, and by disobeying God brought imperfection/death/disease on themselves and their offspring.
Humans have no conscious existence between death and resurrection, the judgement of torment is metaphorical not literal.
Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus, and the Lake of Fire do not refer to the same thing is the Bible.
Jesus died as a ransom sacrifice to repurchase the offspring of Adam from the imperfect/sinfulness inherited from Adam.
As the last Adam, the perfect human Jesus was equal to the perfect human Adam at his creation, since Adam was not God, God-Man, of the Substance of the Father before he sinned, neither was Jesus.
The Good News / Gospel of Jesus Christ, and of the Kingdom is one and the same consisting of: the VIRGIN CONCEPTION/BIRTH of Jesus, his human life and ministry, his death, resurrection, and ascencion to the right hand of God the Father/Jehovah/Yahweh in heaven, where he serves as HIGH PRIEST and INTERCESSOR, and MEDIATOR of the NEW COVENANT, until he is given actual Sovereignty over the earth to rule for 1000 years.
The KINGDOM is a real sovereign government with Jesus Christ as King, not a conceptual kingdom in the hearts of imperfect sinful humans.
The Millenium when the Kingdom is established on earth to restore humanity to perfect and make the earth a paradise.
WITNESSES ARE TAUGHT THEIR PRIMARY GOAL IS TO HAVE A PERSONAL WITH JEHOVAH, GOD the FATHER, as DISCIPLES of JESUS CHRIST and on the BASIS of JESUS' RANSOM SACRIFICE. WITNESSES ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS as LORD and SAVIOR to the GLORY of GOD the FATHER, as the SCRIPTURES TEACH.
WITNESSES ARE TAUGHT TO MAKE A VOW OF PERSONAL DEDICATION TO JEHOVAH, GOD the FATHER, to SERVE HIM AS A DISCIPLE of HIS SON JESUS CHRIST......THIS IS TO BE DONE IN A PERSONAL PRIVATE PRAYER TO JEHOVAH GOD.
WITNESSES ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS AS CHRIST/MESSIAH, HIGH PRIEST/INTERCESSOR, KING/LORD/SAVIOR & ADDRESS THEIR PRAYERS TO GOD the FATHER, JEHOVAH IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST.
1ST CENTURY CHRISTIANS / THE APOSTLES and their associates/disciples were not TRINITARIANS. The so called CHURCH FATHERS starting from the 2nd CENTURY were Hellenic Philosophers, and the so called apostolic, catholic, orthodox, Christianity that the created was acheived by interpreting the Bible to conform to pagan Hellenic Phisolosy, primarily Platonic/neo-Platonic.....Jesus the God-Man/God Incarnation Doctrine was derived from the pagan Mystery Religion belief that a God had to die for mankind, Jesus is also turned into the pagan Hellenic Logos; and in the 4th CENTURY under the authority of the pagan Roman Emperor Constantine the Great, at the Council of Nicea in AD 325, Jesus is made made equal to / of the substance of the FATHER; and before the end of the 4 CENTURY God is finally made into a MYSTRY of the TRINITY.
The followers of the TRINITARIAN / pagan MYSTERY RELIGION ( including CATHOLICS, both OTHRODOX & ROMAN and PROTESTANTS ) imposed their religion by means of oppression, torture and murder from the time of Constantine the Great in the 4th Century to the modern era when religions on the western world cannot get away with it anymore, for now. Their primary targets have been JEWS ( who refuse to accept the pan JESUS IS GOD/GOD IS A TRINITY MYSTERY RELIGION ) and UNITARIAN CHRISTIANS ( believers in the ONE GOD the FATHER, of Biblical Christianity. Now that the Trinitarians cannot get away with overt oppression and murder, they have declared all who refuse to practise the pagan Hellenic Jesus is God Incarnation / Trinitarian Mystery Religion to be cultist.
www.socianian.org / Center for Socinian Studies for information on Michael Servetus and non - trinitarian / unitarian christians.
www.focusonthekingdom.org / Anthony Buzzard / Restoration Fellowship / Church of God General Conference / Benjamin Wilson the translator of the EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT New Testament later purchased and published by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in 1942.
www.harvestherald.com see books by Henry Grew and George Storrs; George Storrs was one of Charles T. Russells mentors.
Purpose of the above is to show that the teachings of the Watchtower/Witnesses are not unique to the Watchtower/Witnesses; nor were they received as a result of divine inspiration by any FAITHFUL & DISCREET SLAVE.
In parting MichaelM, I hope have been of some assistance. I will not encourage anyone to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses nor will I attempt to discourage you in this regard. I believe that a Witness can be a true Christian as an individual, just as members of other fellowships can be true Christians as individuals. The pitfall for me as a Witness was the authoritarianism of the Governing Body / and the ELDERS in the Congregation.
I WISH YOU WELL
BlackRacer in NEW YORK CITY
Welcome back Michael!
I was born into the witnesses and spent over 40 years as one.
A few years back I decided I wanted to leave, quietly. When I tried, my parents refused to ever talk to me again (along with the rest of my family), my wife of 23 years left me because I wasn't going to meeting anymore, and since my ex-wife is still a witness she now can't have anything to do with our 2 children who are grown now and have left the witnesses also. My parents have great-grandchildren that they have never met. All this because I didn't want to be a witness anymore.
All this has happened because this is what the witnesses teach and it's why people say they destroy families. It's not a religion, it's a cult.
Sorry to have to lay that story on you man, but believe me, they are not what they seem....Peace.
Captives of a Concept is ten dollar pdf download I believe. Very easy read, good flow and lays it all out perfectly.
It's only 5 bucks, and I agree, Rollerdave, it DOSE lay it out perfectly. I bought it.
Search "Don Cameron", or the title, or look him up in the forum, under "Don". He's here, also.
And if you are still not sure if the j.w.'s are the "truth", read "Crisis of Conscience" by Ray Franz.
That'll cinch it for ya.
Hubert
