by R.F. 64 Replies latest watchtower bible
Just use your good old common sense.
OH I'm afraid Barbiecon was required to check that in at his 1960's baptism. He has been running on purely "MEAT IN GOOD SEASON" since then... YOU KNOW believe what we say or the "BACK ROOM FOR YOU" Get it Barbiecon, I thought you would...
Welcome RF
Please start your search for truth, and do so with the watchtowers blessing.
We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated. Are its teachings in full harmony with God’s Word, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination.” (The Truth That Leads To Eternal Life, 1968, page 13)
“Reasonable persons agree that the only fair method is to examine the evidence on both sides, both for and against a disputed theory. That is how one arrives at the truth.” (Awake, Oct. 22, 1973, page 6)
“Can there be false religion? It is not a form of religious persecution for anyone to say and to show that another religion is false. It is not religious persecution for an informed person to expose publicly a certain religion as being false, thus allowing persons to see the difference between false religion and true religion.” (Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1963, page 688)
"So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come?...These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?...This 'prophet' was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses...Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a 'prophet' of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?" (Watchtower, April 1, 1972, page 197)
btw fading worked for me
moo
RF...
As a long time lurker and recent poster I am sympathetic to your situation. Until recently I was an elder. I also served as a regular pioneer. I have had many other privileges, but if I were to say here it would identify me very quickly. I am trying to fade. Unlike you, I do not have a fiancee to worry about (I had one last year, but she ended it over her own personal issues). Today I went to the puking public talk but left before the WTrash Study. I do have a mother still in the "Truth" Borg. It is because of her I stay in.
I am glad to hear that you are seriously questioning what you are being spoonfed force fed with a fire hose by the Society. If you love your fiancee, and I am sure you do, take it slowly with expressing doubts. Maybe she is afraid to reveal too much for fear of losing YOU. Discuss with your fiancee the need for education to provide for your family. If she agrees, then enroll in college/university. Of course, you will be too busy to pioneer, so "regretfully" resign so you can pursue your education so you can "take care of your wife". Depending on the congregation, they BOE may call into question your qualifications as an MS. Again, discuss this with your future bride. If the BOE is squawking to much, then "humbly" "step aside" to focus your attention on your future family.
If you need to fade slowly, go through the motions. Go out in FS with your fiancee all the time in the car group (no reason to question that, eh?) Use the time productively to have conversations with her. If you feel hypocritical about peddling the mags/lit, then just use the Bible and tracts. (That's what I did for years). If you still have a "magazine route", then keep it up, but don't add to it. (it will get harder in January when the mags go to one "public edition" each month). Make sure you comment once each meeting (or at least let the elders see your hand up for 5 seconds). Don't set off any alarms or raise any red flags.
Communication will be the key to your future relationship with your fiancee. I hope this goes well with you. There are many of us current JWs on the board. Some posting, many more lurking...waiting...waiting....
As for the large font poster...ignore em. Think for yourself. Most of us on JWD want the best for you. Ultimately, use what you learn here to guide you, but decide for yourself. UNLIKE the Borg, we allow independent thinking. (OMG what a concept!)
We wish you well...
SnakesInTheTower (of the Lazy Sheep Class )
PS...feel free to PM me if you want to unload to a former elder who has many doubts.
SnakesInTheTower
Thanks for the advise. The interesting thing is, after me giving this much thought, I think my fiancee would be really supportive of me going to school. I discussed with her some months back about me quitting pioneering and going to school and she said that whatever I wanted to do she would support me. I don't think the BOE would be so quick to call into questions my MS qualifications. There are some MS in my cong that miss meetings left and right and barely squeeze out their 10 hours a month in service.
Another interesting thing is that you mentioned is that maybe she just hasn't opened up to me about her true thoughts about things. That's something that came to my mind over the last day or so. When she comes to me about certain issues she has it's usually has to do with the hypocrisy of some, not doctrinal points. However I will subtely try to get my issues across through bible reading that she and I do everyday(over the phone when we can't do it together). We do this with no aid from publications so it might be one of the best options right now. Then too I mention the fact of me using another translation when we read and she was down for it. But at this point right now, i'm not so sure what I will do as far as fading. I'm still in the stage of educating myself with truth.
RF
Information and Education will be your best friend in this matter.
Regarding using other translations, use multiple translations. In fact, get one of those 26 in 1 translations of the Greek (New Testament) Bibles. (I have one, they are handy for comparison purposes). The Society uses multiple translations all the time (when it suits their purposes) and the references are in the publications.. But use the NWT as the primary source for now. Don't scare your fiancee (or send up the apostate alarm bells). Let her think for herself. You are already ahead of the game by her agreeing it is good to go to school and stop pioneering. Just reassure her of your love for her. She just needs to be secure. You dont say if you (or she) were raised in the "truth". That makes a huge difference.
Regarding the lazy MS's.... are they squeaking by because their daddies are elders? or they are buddies with them? (Just curious).
Keep looking and learning. Know that the JWD board is here to support you no matter.
SnakesInTheTower (of the Lazy Sheep Class)
Welcome R.F.
You said earlier:
I plan on doing thorough investigations on these points and many others that have caused me concern.
You're on the right track. Don't accept what is written by the Society without investigating it. Don't accept what anyone on this board says without investigating it. Don't rely on just one source of information to investigate anything. Cross reference it with several sources and come to your own conclusion. Then, and only then, will you be able to decide what you think is best and correct.
If you're willing to be true to yourself in this search for real truth, you will be okay. There will be ups and downs, 3 steps forward and one step back at times, but eventually you'll make sense of it all and be ready to move forward in freedom and truth.
Good luck on your journey.
RF said:
Then they say i'm "slowing down spiritually" just because my circumstances have changed a bit and I can't work with the field service groups as much during the week,
Thank you for bringing back a long-forgotten memory for me. I had almost forgotten how single brothers who are "reaching out" are virtually owned by the Elders. Every little step they take, or don't, seems to receive way more scrutiny than the rest of the rank-and-file. Once I became a husband and father, I then had a "scripturally valid" reason to be more career oriented and the elders didn't hassle me (as much). By the way, I'm not recommending you rush into marriage here, which brings me to................
Quandry said:
The fact that you are engaged but unable to discuss this with your loved one is most disturbing.
Hortensia had some great motherly words of wisdom:
Until you really think this through, don't take any serious steps that can't be undone.
I stayed single for many years trying to make up my mind about "the truth". If I was going to end up leaving altogether or being a "flaky JW" I didn't want to lead on some nice "strong pioneer sister". I would strongly recommend you do the same. My mistake was I finally gave in to family sentiments instead of being true to my inner voice. I decided to "get serious about the truth". Married, had kids, got plenty of "privileges" and now? I'm trapped in a horrible Catch-22. Love my wife. Don't believe most of "the truth". May eventually end up losing it all if things don't go right. Do you want to be in my shoes in 20 years?
My concern for you is that you may not be able to think clearly due to your engagement and may be swayed to make huge life decisions largely based on emotion. DO YOUR OWN DUE DILIGENCE!!!
Barbiecon said a lot of "hey look at the big picture and stay in the organization" stuff. Barbiecon's words, while I now disagree with them, should be taken seriously by you. Why? Barbiecon is sticking up for the other side. And you owe it to yourself to be able to say that you openly and honestly looked at all sides. If you continue to take the time to read here, I'll bet you'll find holes in every one of Barbiecon's assertions. But you need to get there yourself. If you get hung up on anything in particular, then speak up, and you'll easily get 10-50 different viewpoints here on JWD. (And we won't Disfellowship you for daring to have a different viewpoint.)
Have you checked out the "Best of" section of this site? There's a ton of information there. Bite off what you can handle. Too much, too soon might make you write off JWD altogether and run back to the Borg. Take everything you read with a grain of salt and circumspection.
Here's to a long, happy, enlightened life. ( "Virtual" glass clinking hasn't been outlawed by the WT.......................Yet. )
Open Mind
Wow R&F - you've really been bombarded with advice - most of it good lol.
I noticed that no one asked about your fiance - is her family 3rd-generation JW's?... that will make some difference I would think, if she is risking being totally cut off from her whole family over a difference in theology. I've read that there've been a LOT of comments from the podium and magazine articles lately that have demanded more 'loyalty' to the 'organisation' and more fear from the slightest contact with df'd 'demonized apostates'. From what you've written, it seems she's a girl who places a lot of stock in truthfulness, and I suggest that above all, you should be truthful with each other - truth means a LOT, young friend. Make it just between the 2 of you and be to each other 'that someone' with whom you can talk openly and honestly about any subject. The best marriage mates begin as best friends - you and me against the world, baby!
There are so many questionable subjects, and you will no doubt be visiting them all in the next few months/years. What started my exodus was learning about their UN/NGO membership( they'd never be even remotely linked to the beast!), and the Silent Lambs(something like that would never be in God's clean org.!) Those 2 things lead me to re-research every detail in my own search for truthfulness. Some study the F&DS or 607/1914 - anywhere is a good start, but like I said, you'll be visiting each and every WT teaching after you investigate your first dissonant topic. Start with your favorite and it will naturally move you to another and another until the scales completely come off and suddenly, you'll see so many things from unblinded eyes and then you'll begin to experience what true joy is! Truth is absolutely FREEing - not BURDENsome! The journey of discovery is gonna be epiphany after epiphany for you - and it's wonderful! You'll actually feel the weight of the world lift off your shoulders - well, I did anyway and I expect most everyone does at some point. You will find your own point.
What I've found effective - do study with the magazines, or the CD rom, and several [other] reference Bibles and study point by point, and you will find the fallacies of WT doctrines. Their own Greek Intelinear is revealing. Their own literature has been their worst enemy, a major undoing for them as it proves itself to not be a progressive understanding as they claim, but multiple, complete turn-abouts and outdated prophetic fantasies - starring THEM. Who does the WT say you need to approach the Almighty? I was shocked to learn that Jesus is not supposed to be every believer's mediator!!! Supposedly, God's direction is through the angels and already-resurrected-in-heaven 'anointed' ones(!!! - a recent WT study article full of unscriptural hypotheses and sounding all too much like necromancy or channeling spirits to me - a big no-no in God's Book), GB members, then the rest of 'the anointed', trickled down to the 'other sheep' / 'great crowd'. Now what does the Bible really teach??? Lol - no pun intended, but from my study thus far I've learned that the holy spirit teaches us about Jesus Christ, who in turn leads us to his Father. "No one comes to the Father except through me." Period. The NT was NOT written only to 'the anointed', but to everyone. And every believer is anointed by holy spirit! There aren't 2 separate flocks of sheep - only one under one Shepherd. There aren't 2 'hopes' - only one - to be accepted into the Kingdom in whatever capacity the King wants us. You're in for some really exciting discoveries in your in-depth studies aside from WT doctrinology.
I promise you, Christ will be a revelation to your seeking heart. When you pray, in total humility ask God to show you truth - no matter what or where it is, and through His holy spirit He will answer you. Truth will outshine every dark doubt and it will be left standing alone. You have nothing to fear in seeking only the truth. There's a big picture to be seen and understood about 'religion' itself... and how none of them truly fit the bill of being the 'one and only' - but they all kinda fit the description of 'Babylon the Great'. That ex-mormon site was an eye-opener for me, too - just change the titles and 'buzz words' and it's the WT all over. I feel (now) that we don't need religion to fulfill our spiritual need. So to those who ask, ''where else ya gonna go?''... the proper question should be - "to whom else should we go?" and the answer once again is Christ. Now where does the organised religion fit in? Wherever they insinuate themselves, that's where - anywhere they can squeeze themselves in and squeeze a penny out. If they were doing their jobs in the first place, they should all be leading people to Christ - but they are leading people to THEMselves.
I've been fading for 6 years now. I wasn't even born into it, but I sure thought it was the ultimate Truth, or at least 'better than'... now I think it's 'the same as'.
I wish you both every success in your spiritual journeys - watch whose footsteps you're closely following and you'll be fine and on the right path!
(sorry so long)
With love and prayers ~Watkins~
Hello RF, Here's a thought most don't think about... If the church is the body of the Christ, then you can say that the church is incorporated in the Christ. And the head of the church is the Christ and the church recieves it's Authority from Christ. Thats the true church. Now, if a church is a 501 c 3 corporation, then that church is incorporated into the state that created it. The head of that "State incorporated church" is the "State" and the Authority over that church is the "State" not the Christ. So, if the church is incorporated in Christ, then they are under Christ Authority, but if they are incorporated with the State, then they have denigned the Christ and are under State Authority not Christ's. You can't serve two master's In truth the WTS has aligned themselves with the "Beast" which is the government. They sold their birthright for a pot of porridge by accepting benifits and privelage's from government by becomming a "501 c 3" non-Prophet corporation. Rather than trusting in God and his Christ, they have put their trust in man and his government. They have NO Authority from God or his Christ, they are an ABOMINATION in God's eyes. Acadian .
Earlier today someone on the board mentioned what a mature, self-possessed young man RichieRich is. I agree totally. However, another young man came to mind also. We know him on the board as R. F.
I bumped this thread so we can see just how far he has come in dealing with WTS issues. His first post was on 4May007. Contrast that with his latest posts. I think everyone should give him a hearty round of applause. Here's to R. F.
Snowbird
