can I be DF-ed without hearing?

by DannyBloem 26 Replies latest jw friends

  • zack
    zack

    I agree that "they" can do what they want, the same as the local police and prosecutor can do as "they" want, since the law is not an

    impediment to those who seek their own ends by any means. In my experience the

    men I served with did NOT do this thing of DF'ing or Dissassociating someone w/o the procedure of a JC.

    And yes, the threat of a lawsuit prompts a call to Legal. Legal finds a way to wriggle out of it for the locals in order to avoid the

    lawsuits.

    There is a couple right now in my area who were arrested and convicted of serious crimes and the local BOE decided not to do anything about it since these

    people had been away from active association for quite some time, even though many knew them to be JW's. It depends on the BOE.

  • Workman
    Workman

    I had faded for some years, then my still witness wife and I split up. At that point there was no one else in my life but she asked me that once there was that I would let her know so that she could remarry if the opportunity arose, I agreed. After I started seeing someone (in the biblical sense) I called her up and told her, though I said that I would not repeat it to a JC or anyone else, that it was between her and I alone.

    Some years later I got a call from two elders who had never been in my cong. though due to boundary changes were now in my ex's hall. They said there were some charges of adultery that they would like to discuss with me. I said that I had nothing to say to them. I then received a letter by registered mail inviting me to a JC, they said to call if I wasn't going to make it. So I called and said that I would not be going and if they did anything to jeopardize my relationship with my children that I would sue them personally. I realized that they were holding the cards but I hoped that they would cease and desist if it would cause them trouble, after all it was about 5 years since I had attended a meeting. I received a second letter via reigstered post saying that a decision had been made in my case and if I wanted to know what it was to call. I never called but an announcement was made. I am not sure to this day if I dissasociated myself or if I am dfed.

  • willyloman
    willyloman

    What this thread does is show very clearly what the WTS' intent was when they changed the announcement a few years back.

    As you may know, the old procedure - and it is a procedure, spelled out in writing by the WTS - was to make one of two announcements:

    So-and-so has been disfellowshipped.... or... has disassociated himself... from the congregation.

    Now, the official announcement is: So-and-so is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    There was heated debate on this forum at the time as to what this all meant. After a lot of speculation, the consensus was that this was put in place for legal reasons. And now we see why. The question, Can I be DF'd without a hearing, is now moot. If you try to sue them for it, they'll just say they did not DF you, but rather you, by your own actions, showed you were "no longer one of" them and they simply informed the congregation of that fact.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Willy is right. All legal mumbo-jumbo.
    Workman, welcome. Your wife wasn't free to remarry as a JW unless the elders
    approved of her freedom, meaning she had to tell them you committed an act
    that they defined as adultery. I am certain they DF'ed you, but I don't know what
    announcement the WTS might have told them to say. Most likely-
    "Workman is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses."

  • sass_my_frass
    sass_my_frass

    Workman:

    I had faded for some years, then my still witness wife and I split up. At that point there was no one else in my life but she asked me that once there was that I would let her know so that she could remarry if the opportunity arose, I agreed. After I started seeing someone (in the biblical sense) I called her up and told her, though I said that I would not repeat it to a JC or anyone else, that it was between her and I alone.

    The problem was that even though you'd told her, she still wouldn't be able to remarry as there weren't 'two witnesses' to you telling her that you're seeing somebody else, so she was stuck and couldn't without being disfellowshipped herself. I agree that it's nobody else's business and good for you for not talking to the elders about it, but you can see what situation this left your ex-wife in. Did the elders contact you just before she remarried, by any chance?

    These elders handled the situation the way their elder book tells them to; contact you by registered mail, use whatever information they have with or without you there to make a decision, and let you know by registered mail. That's the way their book tells them to do it, but it doesn't happen a lot.

    I'm curious about how long it was between your phone call telling them you'd sue, and their letter telling you that you've been 'announced'. It would be interesting to know whether they were nervous about the lawsuit threat and took it to the HQ lawyers.

    Welcome!

  • tijkmo
    tijkmo
    Sorry to disagree, but in all my time as an elder no elder body that I was a part of EVER disfellowshipped anyone without a Judical Committe.

    well neither did i...and i would have argued till i was blue in the face that it never ever happened..

    but in the past month i have spoken to someone who it happened to....by people that i know.

    ..so no argument from me

    and once there is an announcement made then the possiblity of appealing has already passed

    ...but..

    an appeal can only be made on the grounds that the judicial commitee did not handle the case properly...so there is no spiritual appeal..someone cant complain that they were repentant at the time cos that is a judgement call and it is not an absolute science.

    but in this (danny b's) case the 'legal' procedures were not followed since he was not informed of the meeting and did not get the chance to appeal..so threaten them with legal action..they just dont think anyone will bother.

    it wont get your friend reinstated or if it does and he continues not to go to meetings then people will just treat him as df anyway, but it will agitate them..and probably get the c.o involved if not the bethel...and that may make them think twice before doing it again

  • tijkmo
    tijkmo

    The problem was that even though you'd told her, she still wouldn't be able to remarry as there weren't 'two witnesses' to you telling her that you're seeing somebody else, so she was stuck and couldn't without being disfellowshipped herself

    er..not actually true

    Questions

    From Readers

    My unbelieving husband admitted to me that he has another woman.Is his admission sufficient ground for a Scriptural divorce?

    In some cases if a Christian’s unbelieving mate admits to committing immorality, that would provide a Scriptural basis for a divorce, which, in turn, would free the innocent Christian for remarriage if desired.

    Jehovah God’s law to the ancient nation of Israel made provision for divorce on various grounds. (Deut. 24:1, 2) Adultery, homosexuality and bestiality were bases for ending a marriage; the guilty person was to be executed. (Deut. 22:22-24; Lev. 18:22, 23) However, the Law set forth this important requirement: "At the mouth of two witnesses or of three witnesses the one dying should be put to death. He will not be put to death at the mouth of one witness." (Deut. 17:6; 19:15; Num. 35:30) Being a "lover of righteousness and justice," Jehovah required that such matters be determined on the basis of proof, of witnesses, not merely suspicion. (Ps. 33:5) This, of course, was stated as regards applying the death penalty, not as regards a divorce action.

    Another situation dealt with in the Law also illustrates the importance of proof. What was a man to do if he suspected that his wife had committed adultery but she denied it and there were no witnesses? God’s law outlined a step that could be taken, but it was a drastic one that could have lasting effects for the wife if she was guilty or for the husband if she was innocent. She could be brought before the priest and made to share in a prescribed procedure involving drinking some special water. If she was guilty, she would experience the divine punishment of her ‘thigh falling away,’ apparently meaning that her sexual parts would atrophy and she would lose her ability to conceive. (Num. 5:12-31) Evidently in such cases the adulterous wife, though receiving this extraordinary punishment from God, because she denied guilt and there were not the required two witnesses, was not executed.

    What is the situation today in the Christian congregation? Is it possible to obtain substantial testimony as to the grounds for a Scriptural divorce?

    Jesus himself stated that for his followers the only ground for divorce, such as would free a person for remarriage, is if one’s mate commits porneia, gross sexual immorality. (Matt. 19:9) Would there be sufficient ground for divorce if a Christian wife merely suspected that her husband was guilty of adultery? No, for the Christian Greek Scriptures carry forward the principle of a matter’s being established by two or three witnesses, as a balanced sense of justice requires. (John 8:17, 18; 1 Tim. 5:19; Heb. 10:28) So, if a wife merely suspected her husband of adultery, but hedenieditandtherewerenowitnesses to confirm it, she would not have sufficient basis for establishing with the Christian congregation that she had a right to divorce him and thus be free to remarry.

    In some cases, though, an unbelieving mate admits to being immoral. A husband, for instance, might even boast of it to his wife as a taunt to hurt her. She might choose to overlook his waywardness. But what if she feels she cannot or should not? Is his confession enough proof?

    In this situation it is not as if he professes innocence or adamantly denies being guilty of adultery. Rather, he admits it to her, though for the sake of his reputation he might not be willing to own up to it in a court of law or before other persons. What can the wife do?

    Since she is part of the clean Christian congregation, she should realize the importance of handling the matter properly so that, after divorcing him, if she later remarried there would be no question about her keeping ‘the marriage bed without defilement.’ (Heb. 13:4) To that end she could give the elders representing the congregation a letter outlining her situation, stating that her unbelieving husband confessed to her that he had committed immorality. And she could state that in accord with Matthew 19:9 she wishes to put him away, obtaining a legal divorce and thus ending the marriage Scripturally and legally.

    The elders would consider whether there is any known reason to conclude other than that the unbelieving mate had been immoral. If not, they could accept her signed statement.

    ‘But,’ someone might say, ‘is it not possible to submit a deceptive, untruthful statement, saying that her husband confessed immorality when he actually never said that?’ Actually, it would be gross deception for anyone to try that. David once prayed: "You have examined my heart, you have made inspection by night, you have refined me; you will discover that I have not schemed." (Ps. 17:3) Conversely, Jehovah is well aware when someone does scheme and He will make sure that the person does not lastingly succeed. Hence, if a Christian woman goes on record as stating that her husband has admitted immorality, Jehovah knows the facts. As the Bible says: "There is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting."—Heb. 4:13; Prov. 5:21; Jer. 16:17.

    So if there is no reason to doubt the wife’s statement, the congregation elders can leave the matter between her and Jehovah. In that case she would have to bear before God the responsibility as to the actuality of her husband’s immoral course, which would be the Scriptural basis for ending the marriage even if the legal divorce were obtained on some other ground.

  • Stealth453
    Stealth453

    I was. It was announced after the watchliar study on Sunday. I appealed and won. My crime. I questioned the illegal business activities of the PO.

    They got me on trumped up charges 3 months later. I didn't appeal that one...I was glad to be out.

  • tijkmo
    tijkmo

    wow stealth that sounds interesting...can you tell us more...

    or have you already and i missed it in which case is there a link

  • crazyblondeb
    crazyblondeb
    they could accept her signed statement

    What happened to the "2 witness" rule??

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