First & Last, One-time post

by journey-on 95 Replies latest jw friends

  • trevor
    trevor

    Reading through this thread it seems that James is seeking to explain that judgemental beliefs and other tricks of the mind separate us from those we love.

    Harmony is only possible when we overcome these phantoms and move beyond such false divisions. I see no trace of an attempt by James to exalt himself or judge others.

    Often challenging a viewpoint can attract hostility as it causes defensive behaviour. I am encouraged by journey-on’s comment.

    You're an alright guy. Thanks for your insight. We're really not that far apart in some of our thinking.
  • Quandry
    Quandry

    Journey

    Welcome to the forum. I enjoyed your first post. Your sister is being obedient. She was asked to shun you and so she has. She has not been asked by the WTS to give up her luxuries and way of life. I suspect that they suggest that witnesses keep a simple life but do not demand it of them because then they really would lose adherents. They are cruel but not stupid.

    We can not change others; but we can change ourselves. We can truly look upon others and know no separation at all. Not in an egotistical way, but rather as if we have dissolved and there is just the wholeness of life and conscious existence.

    I don't understand this--then again maybe I have a limited capacity for deep thinking. Sounds like the Christian Scientist view that there is no such thing as sickness--it is all in the mind. Then they die like everyone else.

  • MsMcDucket
    MsMcDucket

    It may help to observe the mind, and observe how it weaves a story about what you believe "me" to be. I am not that. Now watch as it weaves the story and identity of "you". What silently sees the story? Is it the story? Are you truly what you believe yourself to be?

    James when I was in college, I had to take philosphy, religion, ethics, and all that jazz. Depending on which college I was at the philosphy and ethics changed with the professor. When I went to a Catholic college, their bent was their religion is right and you must believe in Mary as the Mother of God. If you wanted an "A", you answered the questions accordingly. When I went to a non-religious college, the professor was agnostic. He said you can't be an athiest because you really can't say if there's a God or not. He had challenge questions for the person that was an athiest and he had challenge questions for the person that was religious. I must tell you that I got a "C" in that class cause I was always questioning the professor. He was much smarter than me and had taught many classes and had heard it all before, so my questions were like answering a baby to him.

    At the non-religion college, I studied the anthropology course Magic, Witchcraft, and Religion. Man was that an eye opener! Dr. Robarchek was something else. He didn't believe in religion and he was able to show the relationship with the fairies that the bushmen believed in with the relationship to American religion. I got a "B" in that class. I just couldn't believe he could relate fairies to God! Heh! Now, I'm seeing things differently.

    Of course in Philosophy, you have to learn the father's of philosphy and ethics. Another thought evoking course. Each will teach you something and take you to some deep changes in thought processes.

    After I became a nurse, those courses became handy. I had to learn not to believe what I believed, but what the patient believed. I was never to take away a "patient's hope", and to respect their culture.

    The diversity course was another eye-opener. Read about the Gypsies, the Spanish, the Afro-American down South, the Mexicans, the Buddhist, the Moslems, the Muslims. Whoa buddy, I can't remember it all. I remember that many of the cultures mixed Catholism with their cultural religions.

    One day when I went to work, I was given this black Muslim patient. He had heart surgery. No woman was to look at his body. How was I going to assess his wounds? He told me that the other nurse was very rude and that he didn't want that bitch back in his room. What to do? I told him my predicament. He told me that sense I was nice enough to explain why and what I had to do that he would let me look at his wounds.

    I guess my point is "never take away a person's hope". Let them learn on their own. Many times, I'd just call the Chaplain because I didn't have time to discuss religious issues. I had to get to the next patient.


    Bollenback, David Lawrence.
    Teaching American Studies within an Anthropology Framework. Adviser: Dr. Robarchek

    de Grasse, Jeanne Leslie.
    1998. Tradition and Change: Mayan Textiles of Guatemala. Adviser: Dr. Robarchek.

    Freeman, Antonio T.
    1993. The Caribbean Shango-Complex: A New World Afro-Catholic Syncretic Religion. Adviser: Dr. Robarchek.

    Ham, Amy Drassen.
    1997. Teaching Anthropology (internship). Adviser: Dr. Robarchek.

    Hashem-Zadeh Rasoul Khoras.
    1996. Analysis of the Iranian Revolution as a Revitalization Movement. Adviser: Dr. Robarchek.

    Kautz, Kay D.
    1999. The Prospects of Ecotourism of Maya in the Toledo District, Belize. Adviser: Dr. Robarchek


    I'm having a helluva time trying to post this!
  • MsMcDucket
    MsMcDucket

    I'm wanted to post the challenge questions that the philosophy professor proposed. I'd have to get my transcript to remember the man's name. And I don't feel like digging through all of the paper work that I have from college. I can kind of give you a scenario.

    You can't be an atheist. Answer these questions and show why god doesn't exist.

    Is god omnipotent?

    Is god omniscience?

    Is god omnipresence?

    If not, why?

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    Not that James needs me to defend him, but when I read journey-on's first post, I immediately noticed the same thing as James. Journey on-was very hurt and angry by his sister's shunning, understandably so, and in retaliation he judged her actions as being wrong but also himself as superior because he would never shun her regardless of how wrong she obviously was. James was simply observing this. If you go back and re-read his posts carefully, you will see he made no judgements in them.

    I believe his point was not who was right or who was wrong or whether shunning is right or wrong, but that both brother and sister were trapped in judging one another. Look beyond the content of the story and be aware of the process of what is going on underneath. It is very hurtful to be shunned by loved ones (I know, I have been). It also very frightening when those we love most do not believe and value the same things we do. So frightening, that some believe shunning is justified to protect themselves against great harm. That the harm is mostly imagined is not the point. The fear is very real.

    When I first decided I didn't believe the witness dogma anymore, I went to a counselor. I ranted and raved about how controlling, critical, self-righteous and judgemental and unloving many witnesses were, my family in particular. I talked about my great fear of being shunned and how psychologically cruel it was and how lacking in social consciousness many JW's were. My counselor totally agreed with all of my assessments about JW's. Then he looked me straight in the eye and asked me if I felt superior to JW's and my family now because I saw the flaws in their logic and beliefs and I had more of a social consciousness than they did. He said I had a well-developed ego and perhaps I needed to learn humility. My first instinct was to be highly offended. Hey, I was coming to him for support and he was supposed to be on my side! Besides, there was a difference. I was right and I could prove it! He sat there smiling at me and then I broke out laughing when I realized what I was saying. For the sake of honesty, I had to admit, I did feel superior to them and I was being just as judgemental and critical of them and their beliefs as they are to other people.

    I have a sister who has also seen through the JW beliefs and is no longer practicing. I find her still to be every bit as superior, critical, and self-righteous as she was as a JW, perhaps more so. The only difference is, now I realize that in saying that about her, I am in actuality saying the exact same thing about myself. We cannot recognize in others what does not exist within ourselves to some degree.

    Cog

  • MsMcDucket
    MsMcDucket
    Then he looked me straight in the eye and asked me if I felt superior to JW's and my family now because I saw the flaws in their logic and beliefs and I had more of a social consciousness than they did. He said I had a well-developed ego and perhaps I needed to learn humility. My first instinct was to be highly offended. Hey, I was coming to him for support and he was supposed to be on my side!

    You mean he did this on your first visit? He did no assessment of your mentality? He didn't check to see if you were suicidal? Man, he did cut straight to the chase. Didn't he?

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas

    MsMcDucket:

    I guess my point is "never take away a person's hope".

    Pointing to what unites us, what is pristinely whole and complete, rather than what seems broken and which divides us, is taking away a persons hope? Is this what you are saying? Or am I totally misunderstanding? Do you mean like, let's say: you're drowning, and I jump in the water and pull you to shore; so in a way I have taken away your hope for survival, because now you're safe and hope is unnecessary? Is that what you mean? Are we not coming to value the mental activity of hope over the reality that we are hoping for? Are we identifying so much with our seeming fragmentation and brokenness that the thought of innate wholeness is a threat to our survival?

    j

  • MsMcDucket
    MsMcDucket

    Pointing to what unites us, what is pristinely whole and complete, rather than what seems broken and which divides us, is taking away a persons hope? Is this what you are saying? Or am I totally misunderstanding? Do you mean like, let's say: you're drowning, and I jump in the water and pull you to shore; so in a way I have taken away your hope for survival, because now you're safe and hope is unnecessary? Is that what you mean? Are we not coming to value the mental activity of hope over the reality that we are hoping for? Are we identifying so much with our seeming fragmentation and brokenness that the thought of innate wholeness is a threat to our survival?

    You've got some twisted analogies there don't ya? I'm sure you knew what I meant. If a person is trying to commit suicide he has lost all hope. Right? He/she wants to die because what's the point in living and suffering. This is a totally different scenario then sticking a rafter in one's eye because you have a tooth pick in yours.

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas

    Your argument with me would make sense if I took something and gave nothing.

    However, I have been attempting to point to the one realisation which heals all wounds, and that is our intrinsic wholeness. That which joins us all at a deeper and more significant level than our seeming separation, disunity and beliefs.

    You want to see that as taking away hope. Then that's how you see it.

    j

  • MsMcDucket
    MsMcDucket

    Religious Joke

    Man is drowining at sea. He prays for God to save him. A man comes along in a canoe (James comes along in a canoe) and says get in. The drowning man says no, I am waiting for God to save me. Next, a boat comes along. The guy in the boat says come on get in. The drowning man says no I'm waiting for God to save me. Next, a submarine comes along and the captain says come on get in. The man says no I'm waiting for God to save me. So, the man drowns at sea. He's at the Pearly Gates. He asks God why didn't he save him? God says, I sent you a canoe, a boat, and a submarine!

    He had hope, but he didn't know what form it was going to come in!

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