Looks Like the Andersons Lost in Court

by Beep,Beep 94 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • skeeter1
    skeeter1

    Separation of Church & State is not always a complete separation, as some have posted above.

    First of all, polygomy is not allowed by the State (in fact, it is criminalized - i.e. jail time), even though some Mormons & many Muslims think it is a divine inspiration to have multiple wives. In fact, polygomy has been outlawed for over a hundred years. Second, snake handling is not allowed by the State, even though some Baptists think it proves divine devotion. Third, Jehad is not allowed by any State or Federal government, even though it's, in fact, relgiously motivated conduct. The Courts have always ruled that there are exceptions to the word "separation", such as when the potential harm to the public is very great.

    Today, progressive State courts are allowing the victims of Catholic and Jehovah's Witness sexual abuse scandals to sue the Church. The States which allow these suits don't see it as a Church/State matter, but employ "employment law" to determine if the Church did wrong (i.e. the decision of whether or not to retain a known pedophile in a position of trust). Why did these States call the rose by another name? There is very great harm to the children.

    What about Shunning? I think that where shunning gets to the point of causing immediate family members to turn against each other or business contracts to be breached, the State has a compelling interest in stopping the Shunning. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court agreed with me in Bear v. Reformed Mennonite Church,Pa. 341 A.2d 105 (Pa. 1976) and California's Supreme Court agreed with me in Wollersheim v. Church of Scientology, 212 Cal. App. 3d at 89l3. In fact, these courts saw shunning as a hinderance to religious freedom and a form of coercion that forced the follower to remain. Religious freedom is the ability to enter and LEAVE a religion without extreme sanctions (from this world, anyway...it's still ok for God to punish you in the next). Think about the Canadian JW official written comment about the Sextuplets born to JW parents...it was careful to say that ''Discussions about treatment are private matters between the parents and their treating medical team' (in other words "no coercion" from Watchtower on the blood policy. Hmmmmn, wonder if "Watchtower Legal" has a hold of something & is trying to cut its potential liability?

    What about the Andersons' case? Should whistleblowers who come forward to protect children be protected from such "family breaking" shunning and defamation? Is there very great harm to our nation's society? Any JW who brings the "big, bad roaches in the kitchen" to the public's eye is threatened/silenced. This is coercion, the type that Bear & Wollersheim prevented. In addition, all children, JW & non-JW are at risk. The proven pedophiles go "door to door" (or at least they did back when I was in the borg, and still go out in service if repentant). One JW pedophile, in fact a "Bethalite", recently was caught taping boys in Chicago's airport! While there is no public proof that the Society knew of this Bethalite's behaviour, pedophiles usually have a long history of abuse.... In short, the public at large is in great danger from the Watchtower Society & its silencing of dissenting members such as the Andersons.

    Tennessee is where the Andersons brought suit. Tennessee, while a beautiful state, isn't the most progressive State in the nation in its laws or court rulings. After all, isn't Jack Daniels still not sold in the county where it's made? Eventually, Tennessee will change. Until then, I'll drink Makers Mark.

    Skeeter

  • Junction-Guy
    Junction-Guy

    Thanks Skeeter, Yes the government does get involved in religious matters that affect the health and welfare of the people. Snake handling is dangerous, so most states outlaw it. Polygamy is one of those things that I believe the government is only outlawing for the for the money reasons. Imagine if a man had several wives, they all would be entitled to collect social security. (even though it was outlawed before SS) My point is Government has entwined itself in religious issues under the guise of health and welfare, why dont they step in when children are being molested.? Why should the JW religion get a free pass, when the Gov't has clearly limited certain practices in other religion?

  • skeeter1
    skeeter1

    Polygamy is outlawed, partly from tradition and partly because it enslaves the women & children born of this arrangment. Boys are thrown out to the streets in early adolesence in an effort to keep them away from the young teenage girls who are to be married. It breeds poverty & enslavement, as 12, 13, & 14 year olds have no choice or hope of self determination. This is the case today, and the case when Reynolds v. US was decided by the US Supreme Court in 1878 (below)

    U.S. Supreme Court

    REYNOLDS v. U.S., 98 U.S. 145 (1878)

    98 U.S. 145

    October Term, 1878

    ERROR to the Supreme Court of the Territory of Utah.

    This is an indictment found in the District Court for the third judicial district of the Territory of Utah, charging George Reynolds with bigamy, in violation of sect. 5352 of the Revised Statutes, which, omitting its exceptions, is as follows:--

    'Every person having a husband or wife living, who marries another, whether married or single, in a Territory, or other place over which the United States have exclusive jurisdiction, is guilty of bigamy, and shall be punished by a fine of not more than $500, and by imprisonment for a term of not more than five years.'

    [Questions and excerpts of record regarding jury selection and service of process omitted.]

    The court, in summing up to the jury, declined to instruct them, as requested by the prisoner, that if they found that he had married in pursuance of and conformity with what he believed at the time to be a religious duty, their verdict should be 'not guilty,' but instructed them that if he, under the influence of a religious belief that it was right, had 'deliberately married a second time, having a first wife living, the want of consciousness of evil intent-the want of understanding on his part that he was committing crime-did not excuse him, but the law inexorably, in such cases, implies criminal intent.'

    The court also said: 'I think it not improper, in the discharge of your duties in this case, that you should consider what are to be the consequences to the innocent victims of this delusion. As this contest goes on, they multiply, and there are pure-minded women and there are innocent children,-innocent in a sense even beyond the degree of the innocence of childhood itself. These are to be the sufferers; and as jurors fail to do their duty, and as these cases come up in the Territory, just so do these victims multiply and spread themselves over the land.'

    To the refusal of the court to charge as requested, and to the charge as given, the prisoner excepted. The jury found him guilty, as charged in the indictment; and the judgment that he be imprisoned at hard labor for a term of two years, and pay [98 U.S. 145, 151] a fine of $500, rendered by the District Court, having been affirmed by the Supreme Court of the Territory, he sued out this writ of error.

    The assignments of error are set out in the opinion of the court.

    Mr. George W. Biddle and Mr. Ben Sheeks for the plaintiff in error.

    First, The jury was improperly drawn. Two of the jurors were challenged for cause by the defendant below, because they admitted that they had formed, and still entertained, an opinion upon the guilt or innocence of the prisoner. The holding by a juror of any opinions which would disqualify him from rendering a verdict in accordance with the law of the land, is a valid objection to his serving.

    An opinion based merely upon a hypothetical case, as that 'if so and so is true, the prisoner is guilty,' is not always sufficient; but where the opinion is as to the actual fact of guilt or innocence, it is a disqualification, according to all the authorities. Burr's Trial, 414, 415; United States v. Wilson, 1 Baldw. 83; Ex parte Vermilyea, 6 Cow. (N. Y.) 563; The People v. Mather, 4 Wend. (N. Y.) 238; Cancemi v. People, 16 N. Y. 502; Fouts v. The State, 11 Ohio St. 472; Neely v. The People, 23 Ill. 685; Schoeffler v. The State, 3 Wis. 831; Trimble v. The State, 2 Greene (Iowa), 404; Commonwealth v. Lesher, 17 Serg. & R. (Pa.) 155; Staup v. Commonwealth, 74 Pa. St. 458; Armistead's Case, 11 Leigh (Va.), 658; Stewart v. The State, 13 Ark. 740.

    It was clearly erroneous for the prosecution to ask several of the jurymen, upon voire dire, whether they were living in polygamy; questions which tend to disgrace the person questioned, or to render him amenable to a criminal prosecution, have never been allowed to be put to a juror. Anonymous, Salk. 153; Bacon, Abr., tit. Juries, 12(f); 7 Dane, Abr. 334; Hudson v. The State, 1 Blackf. (Ind.) 319.

    Second, The proof of what the witness, Amelia Jane Schofield, testified to in a former trial, under another indictment, should not have been admitted. The constitutional right of a prisoner to confront the witness and cross-examine him is not to be abrogated, unless it be shown that the witness is dead, or [98 U.S. 145, 152] out of the jurisdiction of the court; or that, having been summoned, he appears to have been kept away by the adverse party on the trial. It appeared not only that no such person as Amelia Jane Schofield had been subpoenaed, but that no subpoena had ever been taken out for her. An unserved subpoena with the name of Mary Jane Schobold was shown. At nine o'clock in the evening, during the trial, a new subpoena was issued; and on the following morning, with no attempt to serve it beyond going to the prisoner's usual residence and inquiring for her, the witness Patterson was allowed to read from a paper what purported to be statements made by Amelia Jane Schofield on a former trial. No proof was offered as to the genuineness of the paper or its origin, nor did the witness testify to its contents of his own knowledge. This is in the teeth of the ruling in United States v. Wood (3 Wash. 440), and the rule laid down in all the American authorities. Richardson v. Stewart, 2 Serg. & R. (Pa.) 84; Chess v. Chess, 17 id. 409; Huidekopper v. Cotton, 3 Watts (Pa.) 56; Powell v. Waters, 17 Johns. (N. Y.) 176; Cary v. Sprague, 12 Wend. (N. Y.) 45; The People v. Newman, 5 Hill (N. Y.), 295; Brogy v. The Commonwealth, 10 Gratt . (Va.) 722; Bergen v. The People, 17 Ill. 426; Dupree v. The State, 33 Ala. 380.

    Third, As to the constitutionality of the Poland Bill. Rev. Stat., sect. 5352. Undoubtedly Congress, under art. 4, sect. 3, of the Constitution, which gives 'power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States,' and under the decisions of this court upon it, may legislate over such territory, and regulate the form of its local government. But its legislation can be neither exclusive nor arbitrary. The power of this government to obtain and hold territory over which it might legislate, without restriction, would be inconsistent with its own existence in its present form. There is always an excess of power exercised when the Federal government attempts to provide for more than the assertion and preservation of its rights over such territory, and interferes by positive enactment with the social and domestic life of its inhabitants and their internal police. The offence prohibited by sect. 5352 is not a malum in se; it is not prohibited by the decalogue; and, if it be said [98 U.S. 145, 153] that its prohibition is to be found in the teachings of the New Testament, we know that a majority of the people of this Territory deny that the Christian law contains any such prohibition.

    The Attorney-General and The Solicitor-General, contra.

    MR. CHIEF JUSTICE WAITE delivered the opinion of the court.

    The assignments of error, when grouped, present the following questions:--

    1. Was the indictment bad because found by a grand jury of less than sixteen persons?

    2. Were the challenges of certain petit jurors by the accused improperly overruled?

    3. Were the challenges of certain other jurors by the government improperly sustained?

    4. Was the testimony of Amelia Jane Schofield, given at a former trial for the same offence, but under another indictment, improperly admitted in evidence?

    5. Should the accused have been acquitted if he married the second time, because he believed it to be his religious duty?

    6. Did the court err in that part of the charge which directed the attention of the jury to the consequences of polygamy?

    These questions will be considered in their order.

    1. As to the grand jury.

    [Discussion of Issues 1-4 omitted]

    5. As to the defence of religious belief or duty.

    On the trial, the plaintiff in error, the accused, proved that at the time of his alleged second marriage he was, and for many years before had been, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, commonly called the Mormon Church, and a believer in its doctrines; that it was an accepted doctrine of that church 'that it was the duty of male members of said church, circumstances permitting, to practise polygamy ; . . . that this duty was enjoined by different books which the members of said church believed to be of divine origin, and among others the Holy Bible, and also that the members of the church believed that the practice of polygamy was directly enjoined upon the male members thereof by the Almighty God, in a revelation to Joseph Smith, the founder and prophet of said church; that the failing or refusing to practise polygamy by such male members of said church, when circumstances would admit, would be punished, and that the penalty for such failure and refusal would be damnation in the life to come.' He also proved 'that he had received permission from the recognized authorities in said church to enter into polygamous marriage; . . . that Daniel H. Wells, one having authority in said church to perform the marriage ceremony, married the said defendant on or about the time the crime is alleged to have been committed, to some woman by the name of Schofield, and that such marriage ceremony was performed under and pursuant to the doctrines of said church.'

    Upon this proof he asked the court to instruct the jury that if they found from the evidence that he 'was married as [98 U.S. 145, 162] charged-if he was married-in pursuance of and in conformity with what he believed at the time to be a religious duty, that the verdict must be 'not guilty." This request was refused, and the court did charge 'that there must have been a criminal intent, but that if the defendant, under the influence of a religious belief that it was right,-under an inspiration, if you please, that it was right,-deliberately married a second time, having a first wife living, the want of consciousness of evil intent-the want of understanding on his part that he was committing a crime-did not excuse him; but the law inexorably in such case implies the criminal intent.'

    Upon this charge and refusal to charge the question is raised, whether religious belief can be accepted as a justification of an overt act made criminal by the law of the land. The inquiry is not as to the power of Congress to prescribe criminal laws for the Territories, but as to the guilt of one who knowingly violates a law which has been properly enacted, if he entertains a religious belief that the law is wrong.

    Congress cannot pass a law for the government of the Territories which shall prohibit the free exercise of religion. The first amendment to the Constitution expressly forbids such legislation. Religious freedom is guaranteed everywhere throughout the United States, so far as congressional interference is concerned. The question to be determined is, whether the law now under consideration comes within this prohibition.

    The word 'religion' is not defined in the Constitution. We must go elsewhere, therefore, to ascertain its meaning, and nowhere more appropriately, we think, than to the history of the times in the midst of which the provision was adopted. The precise point of the inquiry is, what is the religious freedom which has been guaranteed.

    Before the adoption of the Constitution, attempts were made in some of the colonies and States to legislate not only in respect to the establishment of religion, but in respect to its doctrines and precepts as well. The people were taxed, against their will, for the support of religion, and sometimes for the support of particular sects to whose tenets they could not and did not subscribe. Punishments were prescribed for a failure to attend upon public worship, and sometimes for entertaining [98 U.S. 145, 163] heretical opinions. The controversy upon this general subject was animated in many of the States, but seemed at last to culminate in Virginia. In 1784, the House of Delegates of that State having under consideration 'a bill establishing provision for teachers of the Christian religion,' postponed it until the next session, and directed that the bill should be published and distributed, and that the people be requested 'to signify their opinion respecting the adoption of such a bill at the next session of assembly.'

    This brought out a determined opposition. Amongst others, Mr. Madison prepared a 'Memorial and Remonstrance,' which was widely circulated and signed, and in which he demonstrated 'that religion, or the duty we owe the Creator,' was not within the cognizance of civil government. Semple's Virginia Baptists, Appendix. At the next session the proposed bill was not only defeated, but another, 'for establishing religious freedom,' drafted by Mr. Jefferson , was passed. 1 Jeff. Works, 45; 2 Howison, Hist. of Va. 298. In the preamble of this act (12 Hening's Stat. 84) religious freedom is defined; and after a recital 'that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion, and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency, is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty,' it is declared 'that it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order.' In these two sentences is found the true distinction between what properly belongs to the church and what to the State.

    In a little more than a year after the passage of this statute the convention met which prepared the Constitution of the United States.' Of this convention Mr. Jefferson was not a member, he being then absent as minister to France. As soon as he saw the draft of the Constitution proposed for adoption, he, in a letter to a friend, expressed his disappointment at the absence of an express declaration insuring the freedom of religion (2 Jeff. Works, 355), but was willing to accept it as it was, trusting that the good sense and honest intentions of the people would bring about the necessary alterations. [98 U.S. 145, 164] 1 Jeff. Works, 79. Five of the States, while adopting the Constitution, proposed amendments. Three-New Hampshire, New York, and Virginia-included in one form or another a declaration of religious freedom in the changes they desired to have made, as did also North Carolina, where the convention at first declined to ratify the Constitution until the proposed amendments were acted upon. Accordingly, at the first session of the first Congress the amendment now under consideration was proposed with others by Mr. Madison. It met the views of the advocates of religious freedom, and was adopted. Mr. Jefferson afterwards, in reply to an address to him by a committee of the Danbury Baptist Association (8 id. 113), took occasion to say:

    'Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions,-I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.'

    Coming as this does from an acknowledged leader of the advocates of the measure, it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the amendment thus secured. Congress was deprived of all legislative power over mere opinion, but was left free to reach actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive of good order.

    Polygamy has always been odious among the northern and western nations of Europe, and, until the establishment of the Mormon Church, was almost exclusively a feature of the life of Asiatic and of African people. At common law, the second marriage was always void (2 Kent, Com. 79), and from the earliest history of England polygamy has been treated as an offence against society. After the establishment of the ecclesiastical [98 U.S. 145, 165] courts, and until the time of James I., it was punished through the instrumentality of those tribunals, not merely because ecclesiastical rights had been violated, but because upon the separation of the ecclesiastical courts from the civil the ecclesiastical were supposed to be the most appropriate for the trial of matrimonial causes and offences against the rights of marriage, just as they were for testamentary causes and the settlement of the estates of deceased persons.

    By the statute of 1 James I. (c. 11), the offence, if committed in England or Wales, was made punishable in the civil courts, and the penalty was death. As this statute was limited in its operation to England and Wales, it was at a very early period re-enacted, generally with some modifications, in all the colonies. In connection with the case we are now considering, it is a significant fact that on the 8th of December, 1788, after the passage of the act establishing religious freedom, and after the convention of Virginia had recommended as an amendment to the Constitution of the United States the declaration in a bill of rights that 'all men have an equal, natural, and unalienable right to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience,' the legislature of that State substantially enacted the statute of James I., death penalty included, because, as recited in the preamble, 'it hath been doubted whether bigamy or poligamy be punishable by the laws of this Commonwealth.' 12 Hening's Stat. 691. From that day to this we think it may safely be said there never has been a time in any State of the Union when polygamy has not been an offence against society, cognizable by the civil courts and punishable with more or less severity. In the face of all this evidence, it is impossible to believe that the constitutional guaranty of religious freedom was intended to prohibit legislation in respect to this most important feature of social life. Marriage, while from its very nature a sacred obligation, is nevertheless, in most civilized nations, a civil contract, and usually regulated by law. Upon it society may be said to be built, and out of its fruits spring social relations and social obligations and duties, with which government is necessarily required to deal. In fact, according as monogamous or polygamous marriages are allowed, do we find the principles on which the government of [98 U.S. 145, 166] the people, to a greater or less extent, rests. Professor, Lieber says, polygamy leads to the patriarchal principle, and which, when applied to large communities, fetters the people in stationary despotism, while that principle cannot long exist in connection with monogamy. Chancellor Kent observes that this remark is equally striking and profound. 2 Kent, Com. 81, note (e). An exceptional colony of polygamists under an exceptional leadership may sometimes exist for a time without appearing to disturb the social condition of the people who surround it; but there cannot be a doubt that, unless restricted by some form of constitution, it is within the legitimate scope of the power of every civil government to determine whether polygamy or monogamy shall be the law of social life under its dominion.

    In our opinion, the statute immediately under consideration is within the legislative power of Congress. It is constitutional and valid as prescribing a rule of action for all those residing in the Territories, and in places over which the United States have exclusive control. This being so, the only question which remains is, whether those who make polygamy a part of their religion are excepted from the operation of the statute. If they are, then those who do not make polygamy a part of their religious belief may be found guilty and punished, while those who do, must be acquitted and go free. This would be introducing a new element into criminal law. Laws are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere religious belief and opinions, they may with practices. Suppose one believed that human sacrifices were a necessary part of religious worship, would it be seriously contended that the civil government under which he lived could not interfere to prevent a sacrifice? Or if a wife religiously believed it was her duty to burn herself upon the funeral pile of her dead husband, would it be beyond the power of the civil government to prevent her carrying her belief into practice?

    So here, as a law of the organization of society under the exclusive dominion of the United States, it is provided that plural marriages shall not be allowed. Can a man excuse his practices to the contrary because of his religious belief? [98 U.S. 145, 167] To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself. Government could exist only in name under such circumstances.

    A criminal intent is generally an element of crime, but every man is presumed to intend the necessary and legitimate consequences of what he knowingly does. Here the accused knew he had been once married, and that his first wife was living. He also knew that his second marriage was forbidden by law. When, therefore, he married the second time, he is presumed to have intended to break the law. And the breaking of the law is the crime. Every act necessary to constitute the crime was knowingly done, and the crime was therefore knowingly committed. Ignorance of a fact may sometimes be taken as evidence of a want of criminal intent, but not ignorance of the law. The only defence of the accused in this case is his belief that the law ought not to have been enacted. It matters not that his belief was a part of his professed religion: it was still belief, and belief only.

    In Regina v. Wagstaff (10 Cox Crim. Cases, 531), the parents of a sick child, who omitted to call in medical attendance because of their religious belief that what they did for its cure would be effective, were held not to be guilty of manslaughter, while it was said the contrary would have been the result if the child had actually been starved to death by the parents, under the notion that it was their religious duty to abstain from giving it food. But when the offence consists of a positive act which is knowingly done, it would be dangerous to hold that the offender might escape punishment because he religiously believed the law which he had broken ought never to have been made. No case, we believe, can be found that has gone so far.

    6. As to that part of the charge which directed the attention of the jury to the consequences of polygamy.

    The passage complained of is as follows: 'I think it not improper, in the discharge of your duties in this case, that you should consider what are to be the consequences to the innocent victims of this delusion. As this contest goes on, they multiply, [98 U.S. 145, 168] and there are pure-minded women and there are innocent children,-innocent in a sense even beyond the degree of the innocence of childhood itself. These are to be the sufferers; and as jurors fail to do their duty, and as these cases come up in the Territory of Utah, just so do these victims multiply and spread themselves over the land.'

    While every appeal by the court to the passions or the prejudices of a jury should be promptly rebuked, and while it is the imperative duty of a reviewing court to take care that wrong is not done in this way, we see no just cause for complaint in this case. Congress, in 1862 (12 Stat. 501), saw fit to make bigamy a crime in the Territories. This was done because of the evil consequences that were supposed to flow from plural marriages. All the court did was to call the attention of the jury to the peculiar character of the crime for which the accused was on trial, and to remind them of the duty they had to perform. There was no appeal to the passions, no instigation of prejudice. Upon the showing made by the accused himself, he was guilty of a violation of the law under which he had been indicted: and the effort of the court seems to have been not to withdraw the minds of the jury from the issue to be tried, but to bring them to it; not to make them partial, but to keep them impartial.

    Upon a careful consideration of the whole case, we are satisfied that no error was committed by the court below.

    Judgment affirmed.

  • timetochange
    timetochange

    HS,

    Interpreting scripture is one thing, influencing others to follow an interpretation which abuses their civil rights, or leads them into harms way is not. Shunning for example, leads to emotional distress and has resulted in numerous suicides over the past forty years, yet the WTS consistently wins any case bought before the courts citing the First Amendment. Why is this?

    The United States Constitution protects the rights of the minority as well as the majority. You bring up the shunning among JWs, something I am well familiar with. Did you as a JW ever shun? I did, and I must suppose many here also did. Why did we do it? Because we thought it was in scripture and God's will. It is that right of conscience that the U.S. Constitution protects, the right of religious conscience even that which is not in the mainstream.

    Shunning is a filthy thing but it is a filthy thing which some religions preach and are free to exercise. It is better to warn others of this filth than to wish that a law be passed which prevents its exercise because when that happens a pandora's box of "lawful" control may descend upon us. Freedom of religion exists not to protect us from radical religion but from radical government!

    People should choose their religion like they buy their cars: Buyer Beware! In a free society we are free to choose. I support that choice.

    Ed.

  • hambeak
    hambeak

    Crap

  • timetochange
    timetochange

    Hambeak,

    Crap

    I applaud your freedom under the Constitution to speak your mind. Sadly there are many places in the world where you and I could not express ourselves as freely as we do. It is that freedom I applaud...yours, mine and everyone else in the U.S. Freedom of speech, of worship, of assembly, of the press etc., is the very foundation on which this discussion board lawfully exists! Ed.

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    Shame to bad, if they were to win it would have given the WTS such bad press after the media got hold of it, I guess speaking the truth about the truth is not a good thing.

    The cover up looks very similar to the Catholic situation, shut up or will strike you with the hand of god so shush. Churches are greart place to hide oneself with a white sheet.

    You ever notice when a jw talks about their religion they always comment on how clean pure and righteous they are and we are not like those other bad worldly religions from Christendom

    well the fact is they are and they have the lawyers to prove it ! They are after all trying to sell themselves as the one and only true religion on earth, so they will try to fight anything that

    contravenes that statement.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Ed,

    Shunning is a filthy thing but it is a filthy thing which some religions preach and are free to exercise.

    Yes, this is underlining the exact point that I made. I also suggested that they should not be allowed freely exercise this policy as it leads to the emotional distress, and in many instances to the death of the citizens of the very nation which is allowing them free exercise of this anti-social behavior.

    As I have intoned in my posts on this thread, this travesty of justice is allowed to exist because of the fear within the US lawmakers that the Sacred Cow of religion might have its udders crushed. That is why judges, even those that recognize what is actually ocurring in these instances, shrug their shoulders and fan the perspiration of discomfort from their brows with the First Amendment , which is being used by religions such as the WTS and Scientology as a shield behind which to hide dangerous behaviors.

    It is better to warn others of this filth than to wish that a law be passed which prevents its exercise because when that happens a pandora's box of "lawful" control may descend upon us. Freedom of religion exists not to protect us from radical religion but from radical government!

    I could not disagree more. A civilized nation, which boasts of its Democracy, often at the point of a gun, should be all the more interested in preserving the well-being of every single one of its citizens. If Laws do not exist to facilitate this, then they should be invoked with all possible haste.

    Your argument falls flat on its ear as you do not seem to have grasped my earlier point that the very system which you would want to prevent opening 'Pandora's Box' has in fact numerous growing laws that protect its working citizens from harm that might result to them, both emotional and physical in the workplace.

    For example, if a CEO shuns a member of his staff, with all its emotional effects on that person and his family, he would be held to account legally for doing so. So I ask again, why can these types of laws be so easily invoked for secular corporations, but not religious corporations, who deal in life and death issues? Surely they should be measured against the same standards.

    Best regards - HS

  • timetochange
    timetochange

    HS,

    For example, if a CEO shuns a member of his staff, with all its emotional effects on that person and his family, he would be held to account legally for doing so. So I ask again, why can these types of laws be so easily invoked for secular corporations, but not religious corporations, who deal in life and death issues? Surely they should be measured against the same standards.

    Religion in the U.S. is not a secular entity. It's that simple. Religion has the right to exercise its own beliefs and if shunning is one of them so be it, under the law. In the 1940's Jehovah's Witness children won the right to not salute the flag in school, a decision which did not come quickly or easily. Surely, in the minds of many Americans "shunning", a practice not limited to JWs alone, is not nearly as controversial.

    Religion in the U.S. is given its rightful freedom though not total freedom as evidenced by the JW minor blood issue and other instances where religions have entered the realm of criminal behavior. American law does apply to religion but not to beliefs which do not violate a law.

    Also, JWs do not hide their practices from new converts, on the contrary, new converts must answer 90 questions covering the JW beliefs before they can be baptized. Shunning is not a deep dark secret it is widely known and advertized in the JW religion. I in no way mean to minimize the hurtfulness of this policy, I only point out that few if any are not aware of it before baptism.

    Shunning is an evil to be sure but an evil that the Watchtower proclaims loudly....yet....we do accept and baptize...do we not?...though we know. An interesting human trait. I suppose few believe it will happen to them, foolish us. My friends and family no longer speak to me, I know the hurt, I know the evil, I also applaud my country's Constitution!

    Ed.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Ed,

    You seem to continue to miss the point.

    Religion in the U.S. is not a secular entity. It's that simple.

    We all know this.

    Religion has the right to exercise its own beliefs and if shunning is one of them so be it, under the law. We all know this too.

    Well all know this too.

    What the issue is about is whether this is a JUST scenario, or not, and if this is not just, as I have posited, does a parallel presidence exist and indeed it does, as I again note above.

    I have also noted that some European countries seem to be much closer to a just position than does the US. You seem to be persistently describing the obvious without attending to its implications.

    HS

    HS

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit