"Jehovah God"

by Jeffro 48 Replies latest jw experiences

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  TonusOH

  CompuServe was the first message board I used, I think, back in late 1990 or 1991. There was software that could automate the process of downloading messages and uploading replies, so you only had to pay for the few minutes it took to do those, and you could read and reply while offline. So it was relatively inexpensive. I do remember that they charged more if you connected at a higher bit rate. So for live chat, you'd connect at 300 baud. For downloads/uploads, 2400 baud.

  I don't know if I could live without broadband now.
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  Disillusioned JW

  I mostly used CompuServe to browse the internet and to read information which was in their database.
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  Riley

  The one that always bothered me the most was the use of the term " Heavenly father Jehovah ".

  It was just pure dogmatic WT nonsense.

  You have to completely ignore the plurality of god in the old testament and just assume Jesus is referring to his father by the tetragrammaton which no single copy of the new testament contains.
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  Disillusioned JW

  Riley, don't the Jews of Judaism ignore the plurality of Elohim (God) in the Hebrew Scriptures (old testament), except in the sense of being the "plural of majesty"? They utterly reject the idea of God consisting of more than one person (and thus they totally reject the trinity doctrine) - and their culture is the one which wrote the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) and which has been teaching for over 3000 years obedience to its laws. Surely they know what kind of God their OT reveals God to be. The Shema, which Jews of Judaism recite, is "the Lord, our God, is one" and the Bible says "Yahweh, our God, is one Yahweh". However, the NT in at least one verse does equate the Lord Jesus with the Lord Yahweh.

  The gospel of Matthew (at 6:9) says that Jesus taught his apostles to pray "Our Father who/which is in heaven" ("in the heavens"). [Granted, in Luke 11:2 it does not say "in heaven" or "in the heavens".] Do you think Jesus, whom the gospel said was on Earth at the time, was teaching his apostles to pray to Jesus or to a trinity? To me, the Jesus of the Bible was teaching his apostles to pray to Yahweh/Jehovah and with the understanding that Yahweh/Jehovah is their Father.

  Though some verses in the NT possibly portray the God of the OT as consisting of more than one person, the OT repeatedly and numerously portrays its God as consisting solely of one person (except maybe in just a few verses). The WT's view of the Heavenly father being Jehovah (though of course my atheistic view is that there is no god) is thus well grounded upon the OT Bible and upon numerous verses of the NT Bible.
  
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  Disillusioned JW

  As a result of what I said in my prior post, I thus disagree that the WT view on the phrase "Heavenly father Jehovah" is "pure dogmatic WT nonsense".
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  Jeffro

  Disillusioned JW:

  Though some verses in the NT possibly portray the God of the OT as consisting of more than one person, the OT repeatedly and numerously portrays its God as consisting solely of one person (except maybe in just a few verses).

  The OT presents God as one person except when it doesn’t. It is therefore a fallacy of composition to say that the OT overall portrays God as only one person. But it is mostly in Genesis where the plurality is most evident, both in the plural word forms and direct statements (e.g., Abraham repeatedly recognising 3 men as Yahweh). Initially adapted from the Canaanite pantheon, the character is developed gradually, and becomes a monotheistic deity, influenced both within (e.g., Yahwist as opposed to Elohist sources) and by other nations.
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  Disillusioned JW

  Jeffro, I very carefully worded my post in such a way as to avoid saying the OT never presents God as more than one person. I am well aware that a very small number of OT verses present, or possibly present, God as more than one person. As a result your comment of "The OT presents God as one person except when it doesn’t" is a nick picking type of comment. I see why scholar says you are a nit picker. Furthermore, your comment of it is "... a fallacy of composition to say that the OT overall portrays God as only one person" is itself a fallacy, for the overwhelming verses about Yahweh Elohim describe him as one person, despite often using the plural word "Elohim".
  

  [ I know that Genesis 1:26 can easily be interpreted as the OT saying Elohim/God is more than one person, but it could be speaking of multiple gods as part of a divine council acting together, instead of one God consisting of multiple persons. Though the word "Elohim" is a plural word it is not the name "Yahweh". Yes Yahweh is called "Elohim" but a singular verb (at least according to the sources I read, not just WT sources) is used in regards to Elohim when the word Elohim is used in reference to Yahweh, and elsewhere in regards to the God of the Bible. Though trintarians see three persons in that usage, I and the Jews of Judaism don't.

  In the Canaanite pantheon Elohim consisted of multiple separate gods ruling together as a divine council and/or or as the seventy sons of El (with Yahweh as one of the 70 sons of El), and the ancient Hebrews originally sometimes thought of Yahweh as one of the Elohim and as one of the sons of El. Yes the Jews interpretation of Yahweh in regards to the Elohim gradually changed. The Jews also gradually moved from henotheism to strict montheism.]
  

  In my reading of the entire Bible (and the entire Apocrypha and much of the Pseudepigrapha) I never got the impression from the Bible of Abraham repeatedly recognizing 3 men as Yahweh, though admittedly it portrays Abraham as perceiving one of the 3 men (I think on three occasions) as Yahweh. For example the accounts can easily be viewed as the Bible saying Yahweh/Jehovah came down to earth to see what was going on (and in fact the Bible actually says that Yahweh/Jehovah came down to see what was happening). If I am wrong about the 3 men, please tell me the verses which demonstrate such.
  

  Please tell me more about your background. From reading a number of your posts I suspect you were not raised from infancy by JW parents. In one of your earliest posts on this site, perhaps your first post on this site, (one made 17 years ago) you announced that you officially disassociated yourself (via writing to the WT) from the WT's JW religion. In the same post you also directed readers to your page on wordpress about your research in regards to 607 BCE and the book of Daniel. Was it your research regarding 607 BCE versus 587/586 BCE and the book of Daniel which primarily caused you to decide to officially quit the JW religion? For how many years were you a JW (especially officially as a JW, namely as a baptized JW)? I get the impression it was not likely for long. Did you ever really believe in the JW religion?
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  Jeffro

  Disillusioned JW:

  Please tell me more about your background.

  I will provide only what is sufficient to answer the questions raised that I choose to answer.

  From reading a number of your posts II suspect you were not raised from infancy by JW parents.

  Not from birth, but my parents converted when I was very young.

  In one of your earliest posts on this site, perhaps your first post on this site, (one made 17 years ago) you announced that you officially disassociated yourself (via writing to the WT) from the WT's JW religion.

  No part of that statement is accurate, and the fact that you say 'perhaps your first post on this site' is telling that you are making up some details (my first post on this site actually said, "Anyone can make a prophecy that must eventually occur. I hereby prophesy that tomorrow the sun will rise. Sometimes the Witnesses tout Revelation 11:18 as indicating that only now has mankind had the capacity to actually 'ruin' the Earth. They don't bring up Genesis 6:12 in the same sentence..") However, I did indicate in an early post (but not my first post), that I wrote to the Watch Tower Society explaining that their doctrines related to the Neo-Babylonian period are incorrect, and I directed that no announcement about me should be made, whether or not it included their terms 'disassociated, 'disfellowshipped' or similar. The post did not mention a wordpress site or any other website. I didn't move my website to wordpress until a few years later.

  In the same post you also directed readers to your page on wordpress about your research in regards to 607 BCE and the book of Daniel.

  Not aware of a specific post where I referred to my wordpress page and also referred to disassociation, but since I didn't have a wordpress site in 2005, you are lying. The first post where I linked to my previous webhost was a few weeks after my first posts on this forum and didn't mention anything to do with 'disassociation' or anything similar

  Was it your research regarding 607 BCE versus 587/586 BCE and the book of Daniel which primarily caused you to decide to officially quit the JW religion?

  607 BCE was an interesting topic to consider from a historical background to see how statements in the Bible and JW doctrines comport with reality, but it was not the reason for ceasing to be involved with JWs.

  For how many years were you a JW? I get the impression it was not likely for long.

  I was raised in the denomination from early childhood and officially left when I felt that I could emotionally and financially support myself. The exact particulars are none of your business.

  Did you ever really believe in the JW religion?

  No, I was never personally convinced that God exists, and therefore also not convinced of doctrines specific to JWs.

  Further attempts to dig up personal information about me may result in a complaint to Simon.
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  Disillusioned JW

  Jeffro, it was the earliest post I had found for you, but after reading several pages of search results I stopped looking to see if you had an earlier post of this site. What I was said was truly my impression and thus a not a lie (even it what I thought was in error). I will search again for the post I have in mind and then include a link to it in this post (if I find that old post in time). I now remember I was only searching through 44 forum topics started by you on this site. That might explain why I thought I had found your earliest post and why you disagree with me. It would take too long for me search through all of your other posts (which number more than 5,400), in part because this site does not put the search results in chronological order.

  Update: Here is a forum topic created by you 16 years ago (according to this site) in which you posted a link to your page(s) about 607 BCE on the wordpress web site: https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/126189/blogs (it is in the first post of that topic thread).

  Here at https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/92043/society-record-keeping in a topic thread created by you, in the first post of that topic (which the site says was 17 years ago), you said the following.

  "One month after writing a letter to the Society directing that they destroy, or return to me, all records pertaining to me and today I received a phone call from one of the 'elders'. (I sent this letter a few days after the elders announced that I was "no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses" [though on the phone they had told me it would be announced that I had disassociated]. For the record I had explicitly directed 6 months ago that no such announcement be made because I have no status with the organization)."

  I see that the post from 17 years ago (according to this site, which states the number of yeas ago, but not the number of months ago, you made the post) regarding your letter to the Society is one year prior (according to this site) to your post of you posing a link to your page(s) on the word press web site. I thus had a small error in what I posted previously. I also see that in your post (about your letter to the Society) you did not claim to notify the Society of you disassociating yourself. However, you said that prior to sending the letter, the elders over the phone told you that it be announced that you had disassociated. There were thus some inaccuracies in what I previously posted about that matter, but I still much of the idea correct.

  https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/users/18346/Jeffro/topics says in regards to this site that "Jeffro Joined 17 years ago".
  
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  Jeffro

  Disillusioned JW:

  Partial update: Here is a forum topic created by you 16 years ago (according to this site) in which you posted a link to your page(s) about 607 BCE on the wordpress web site: https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/126189/blogs (it is in the first post of that topic thread).

  That forum post (neither my first post nor my first topic) also didn't mention anything about 'disassociation' or similar. And the website linked to was privately hosted, not on the wordpress domain.