by gumby 85 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
As all faithful witnesses to Jehovah the most high god well know.....Jesus was the first to go to heaven.( John 3:13 )
Does anyone have any idea where Enoch went.....since he never died?
The author of the letter to the Hebrews says "By faith Enoch was transferred, that he should not see death, and was not found, because God had transferred him; for before his transference he had the witness that he had pleased God well." (Hebrews 11:5)
Gumby
Why assume he went to heaven? The scripture does not say where he was transferred to.
Did you read my reply to you on the "killer" thread?
Warlock
Why assume he went to heaven? The scripture does not say where he was transferred to.
Cuz there's nowhere else for Jehovah to put the guy.......Mr.Warlock!!!!! If god put him somewhere.....where do you suppose he mighta put him? He wouldn't have put him all by his lonesome now would he? Maybe the lucky bastard turned Muslim and he got his 40 virgins that all them guys are after.
And no, I didn't read your response cuz it takes too long for that thread to load up.....at least for me. Hey, did you ever find a cure for your scabbies yet 'ol bud?
Gumby
There is another possible explanation that sits quite comfortably with the idea that Enoch was indeed "taken" [or "translated"] to heaven. It lies in divining the meaning of "ascending".
At Jo 3:13 the word does not just mean "going up" but "going up while once being up there" No one, according to the claim made by Jesus, has been in heaven and come down here and gone back up there having completed His task. I suppose in this sense we can call Jesus the "ladder" between heaven and earth with access to both realms. He descended at the Incarnation. And "ascended" at the Ascension.
So, most evangelicals believe that while Enoch may have been the first to be "taken" to heaven, Christ was the first and only one to go both ways voluntarily.
Cheers
whatever gumbster-
when god created man, she was only joking!!!!!!!!!!!
Deb......your gonna burn in the Lake of Fire for callin god a girl. He's a guy cuz Moses saw him and Abraham fed him(Gen 18)....ya big silly
At Jo 3:13 the word does not just mean "going up" but "going up while once being up there" No one, according to the claim made by Jesus, has been in heaven and come down here and gone back up there having completed His task
Moggy, my bible reads a bit different than yours. Jesus clearly showed that nobody other than him has ever gone to heaven and he said nothing about one who has been there and came back. Do you have a refrence for the word ascend?
Elijah was another who is believed to have gone to heaven.
as·cend 
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v.as·cend·ed, as·cend·ing, as·cends v.intr. 1. To go or move upward; rise. See Synonyms at rise. 2. To slope upward. 3. To rise from a lower level or station; advance: ascended from poverty to great wealth; ascend to the throne. 4. To go back in time or upward in genealogical succession. v.tr. 1. To move upward upon or along; climb: ascended the mountain. 2. To succeed to; occupy: ascended the throne upon the death of her father.
Gumby
Abraham is also there.
Luke 16:22 “Now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of Abraham.”
Matthew 8:11 “But I tell YOU that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens.”
I touched on this in a thread from ages ago:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/64970/1.ashx
There were many traditions about patriarchs and faithful men in heaven in Second Temple Judaism, and these views influenced the NT, particularly the synoptic tradition. Enoch and Elijah were the two most common figures, as their translations were mentioned in the OT (and Elijah's return announced in Malachi), and Enoch in particular was the focus of a very large and varied cycle of literature. Elijah was believed to return by the Jews because the common belief was that he never really died and would return (cf. also the Animal Apocalypse of 1 Enoch and Revelation 11:6). The same thing was believed of Enoch. In particular, in 1 Enoch the hero was taken up to heaven and was explained the secrets of the heavenly cycles (cf. the Book of Luminaries of 1 Enoch) and thereafter Enoch became the heavenly scribe, always watching humanity and recording their deeds in the "books of life". It is precisely these books in Daniel and Revelation that will be opened on Judgment Day, for therein are recorded all the deeds by which the resurrected will be judged (cf. Revelation 20:12). In fact, in the Book of Parables (which was a direct influence on the gospels), Enoch himself was appointed to be the Son of Man (also called the Anointed One) who will come on Judgment Day seated on the throne of glory. In later Enochic tradition, Enoch was described as the great angel Metatron and even the "lesser YHWH". In Jewish tradition, other patriarchs who died had their souls taken to heaven by angels while Michael the archangel buried the body. Abraham in particular was taken up into Paradise while his body was buried in Mamre, and it is in "his bosom" where his children and grandchildren would reside (cf. Testament of Abraham). This clearly lies behind the conception in Luke 16, as well as the hope expressed in 4 Maccabees that Abraham, Isaac, and the other patriarchs will welcome the faithful martyrs when they die. Moses was another figure who was described in Jewish literature (i.e. the Assumption of Moses) as ascending to heaven at his death; the story went that Joshua saw Moses double when he died, with one Moses being taken up on a cloud to heaven while the other was buried by the angels. The anecdote in Jude 9 is dependent on the Assumption of Moses, again demonstrating the relevance of these traditions to the NT. The Exagoge of Ezekiel the Tragedian even pictures a glorified Moses in heaven being worshipped by the angels; this idea of glorification is very similar to that of Enoch in the Book of Parables and to that of Jesus in the NT. The Apocalypse of Moses reports another tradition about Adam being lifted up to third heaven to Paradise upon his death, while his body was buried in the earthly Paradise. In the Testament of Abraham, there is even a vision of Adam as the enthroned eschatological judge on Judgment Day, who exults at the souls going through the narrow gate into Paradise and who weeps sorrowfully for the souls who enter the broad and spacious gate into Gehenna. There is even a tradition about the soul of David being in heaven. In summary, the eschatology assumed in these examples is well-summarized by Josephus in the following manner: "People who depart from this life in accordance with nature's law, thus repaying what God had lent them, when the giver wants to claim it back again, win everlasting fame ... their souls remain without blemish, and obedient, and receive the most holy place in heaven. From there, when the ages come round again, they come back to live again in holy bodies" (Jewish War, 3.374; cf. Wisdom 3:1-4). See also Revelation 6:9 which pictures the faithful martyrs awaiting their future resurrection in heaven.
Regarding John 3:13, it should be noted that this passage is part of the overall proto-gnostic theology of the book (e.g. "no one has ascended into heaven" is parallel to "no one has ever seen God" in 1:18; cf. 5:37, 6:46, 14:8-9, which speaks to the Son's role as the divine Revealer of the Father) which is far removed the kind of apocalyptic Judaism described above. Remember, the Bible is not a single book but an anthology of works from different theological and eschatological standpoints.
Finally, although the above pertains to the variety of Judaisms in the Second Temple period, it should be noted that the basic premise in the Enochic corpus that Enoch was taken up to heaven is most likely presumed in the much less detailed bare-bones reference in Genesis 5:24. It is often noted that this brief notice alludes to a backstory that would have already been widely known outside of Genesis (just as the bare references to Cain, Balaam, and Korah in Jude 11 allude to the backstories of these figures in the OT), and the diversified corpus of Enochic tradition (including the Book of Luminaries, the Book of Giants, the Book of Parables, the Book of Giants, the Animal Apocalypse, the Apocalypse of Weeks, the Epistle of Enoch, Jubilees, etc.) is a witness to the body of tradition that existed earlier, especially since it is filled with elements derived from much older Babylonian and Canaanite mythology. In fact, there is considerable evidence that the figure of Enoch himself is based on Babylonian myths about the antedilivian king Enmeduranki (who was seventh in line from the first man), who was similarly associated with the sun (= the solar calendar of Enoch and the 365 years of Enoch in Genesis) and who was initiated into the secrets of heaven. This was discussed in another very old thread of mine: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/67655/1.ashx
Sorry, Gumby, the fault is entirely mine. I did not make myself clear. I was not implying that there was some sort of esotertic meaning to the word "ascend" beyond that which is clearly recognized in a dictionary. My intention, rather, was to stress the voluntary nature of Christ's going up to heaven in contrast to others who may have gone before.
Whereas Enoch and Elijah were "taken" to heaven even guided there, they did not proceed on their own steam, as it were. That is why the Biblical text does not use the word "ascend" in their case. I feel that is what Christ was indicating at Jo 3:13. He was the first indeed to ascend under His own steam, under his own volution.
As to the part about His having been the first to go both ways, this may not of course be inherently implied in the meaning of "ascend" but notice Jesus' words at this text: "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, [even] the Son of Man" [NASV]
The uniqueness of Christ is that His ascension to heaven was voluntary, in His own iherent power, implied in the word "ascend" - and that it is a two-way process, as indicated by His own words.
Cheers
