Did any Man Asend to Heaven Before Jesus?

by gumby 85 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • acadian
    I really liked your comments and I, by myself, came to the same conclusion.
    Or...maybe 1 Corinthians 2:14 applies to you? 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. And you have God's spirit in you...? Peace
  • Star Moore
    Star Moore


    You said

    In other words, when scripture speaks of the dead, it is speaking of those who are dead in trespass and sins:

    Yes, Yes and Yes!!!! So when the WT uses the scripture in Rom. 6:7

    For he who has died has been acquitted from his sin..

    It's referring to dying, as to the old sinfulful man and being renewed as the new man of spirit..

    Like the richman and Lazarus story.. each man died as to a former way of life. (not literal death).

    Also, I'm thinking of I Cor. 15:50 -52, when it says:

    .........flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. ......We shall not all sleep but will be changed in a twinkling of the eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised up incorruptibe, and we shall be changed......and put on immortality

    Al..I'm getting this to mean.. that in the Great Trib..we will experience a change from a spiritual sleep to an awakening!

    A realization that we have passed from death to life. In a twinkling of an eye.. meaning so unnoticeable, even we ourselves can hardly detect when exactly it happened.

    What do you think?

  • crazyblondeb
    that in the Great Trib..we will experience a change from a spiritual sleep to an awakening!

    Sounds like bad fairy tale, written by awful men!! At least Sleeping Beauty and Cinderella were good stories!!

  • tetrapod.sapien
    After they received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, the apostles spoke of Heaven as something they were experiencing while in their bodies.


    heaven, nirvana, cosmic consciousness...

    they all involve a death of the old animal self, and a rebirth into an elevated state of consciousness in this life, not after death.

    from wikipedia, Higher Consciousness:

    Higher Consciousness - also called Super Consciousness (Yoga), Buddhic Consciousness (Theosophy), Objective Consciousness (Gurdjieff), Christ Consciousness, Cosmic Consciousness and God-consciousness (Islam and Hinduism), to name but a few - are expressions used in various traditions of spiritual science and psychology to denote the consciousness of a human being who has reached a higher level of evolutionary development and who has come to know reality as it is. Evolution in this sense is not that which occurs by natural selection over generations of human reproduction but evolution brought about by the application of spiritual knowledge to the conduct of human life. Through the application of such knowledge (traditionally the preserve of the world's great religions) to practical self-management, the awakening and development of faculties dormant in the ordinary human being is achieved. These faculties are aroused by and developed in conjunction with certain dispositions of character such as patience, kindness, humility and forgiveness towards one's fellow man – qualities without which Higher Consciousness is not possible.


    so, if this is what you mean, gumby, by your original question, then i would answer yes. heaven is not a place, it's a state of mind. God is not a person/entity, but a state of Being, outside of time and ego, imo.


  • gumby

    Acadian and Star Moore......it appears that both of you really have no hope other than living this short life with a big jesus smile on your face since neither one of you believe in any other place than this earth as for mans dwelling whether you are a believer or not. I guess it's fair to say that for you two....the best that it gets is to have god dwell in you.....but if it makes you happier than the rest of mankind....that's cool

    What happens when tradgedies strike believers, how does god benifit them and do they not have the same fate as the non-believer? Doesn't sound like much of a fair payoff for living your life to this god to me if you suffer the same calamities as the wicked and that's all you get in life.


  • heathen

    That's not the way I perceive those scriptures . What you are saying is similar to what the the WTBTS says about surviving on earth while it's being destroyed and rebuilt . I think the change mentioned in 1st corinthians is similar to what is said about the rapture and the kingdom of the heavens is in fact the city of New Jerusalem described in Revelation .I believe the millenial reign takes place there and not in a destroyed earth that needs people to clean up a mess . The main difference between the great crowd and the 144k is that the 144k are martyred and are the first resurrection , the great crowd are the ones that will never know death at all but inherit the kingdom and the paradise earth .

  • Star Moore
    Star Moore

    Gumby: Heck no, I'm not just looking forward to this horrible world. I believe in everlasting life.

    Tetra: You said:

    so, if this is what you mean, gumby, by your original question, then i would answer yes. heaven is not a place, it's a state of mind. God is not a person/entity, but a state of Being, outside of time and ego, imo.


    Me too, heaven is not a place, but a state of mind with God.. Except for the new heavens, I think are the new government or the kingdom of God.

    Heathen: No, I'm not thinking the ICor. 15 is the rapture. I used to think that though.. The witnesses version is similiar to the rapture, as they believe that the 144,000 will be taken to heaven as spirits.

  • pseudoxristos

    I have nothing to add to this thread, but I did find it interesting so I am going to post something to it just so I can find it later.


  • heathen

    starmore from what I've seen the WTBTS say about those scriptures is about the same as you are saying . The great crowd don't get "raptured" but are passed over from death to life like the jewish passover in egypt , instead of smearing lambs blood on their doorway they wash their robes symbolically in the the blood of the lamb as in Revelation 7 . I hesitate to use the word "rapture" myself because people believe they will be ascending to heaven when in fact the bible is saying that the kingdom of the heavens descends on earth . According to the WTBTS it is an enormous city but the WTBTS doesn't even believe it's real for some reason as I've read in their Revelation grand climax book they clearly state it's only figurative . They like to compare their publishing empire to it or some crap that makes no sense and I'm sure they've probly tried to cover over their misinterpretation already. It's been posted on the board they have tried to edit alot of things in it .

  • james_woods

    Do Yuri Gagarin and Alan Sheperd count?

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