Did any Man Asend to Heaven Before Jesus?

by gumby 85 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • gumby
    gumby
    Most think that heaven is the realm in the spirit world, where the angels and God are.. but it is actually IMO, the place with God. Which could be as a spirit or a human.

    So, unless one dies, he can't be with god? Sounds like the bible god is a bad planner to me. I guess if our first parents hadn't sinned....nobody would "be with" god...at least as are the angels. We'd have to settle on prayer to talk with god had our first parents not sinned. I guess it's a good thing Adam and Eve disobeyed since only death brings us within the realm of god along with gods son and the angels. Eating of the tree of life would have meant life eternal on earth....not "with" god.

    Clammer, maybe if I don't make heaven, I can at least polish up a few before they get raptured so high I can't reach them.

    Gumby

  • Star Moore
    Star Moore

    Hi Gumby:

    You said: So, unless one dies, he can't be with god? Sounds like the bible god is a bad planner to me.

    No, not at all. What I meant was..that while the person is alive they can reach that place with God..when the holy spirit and Jesus' spirit make their home with him. Like at Pentecost CE..

    I also think the new heavens and the new earth is a new government and a new system.. right here on earth. It seems when the bible talks of things being 'heavenly', it is refering to being of God.. not neccessarily in the sky.

  • crazyblondeb
    crazyblondeb

    star,

    i almost feel so sorry for you!!

  • oldflame
    oldflame
    my bible reads a bit different than yours.

    Hey ya old gray haired GumbBastard,

    What ya doin ? Still readin from the NWT ?

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien

    shiney gumballs!

    it's what Satanus said man! represent!

    if you see jesus as an instance of nature-opened sentience in the evolution of the consciousness our species, then the buddha "ascended", "awakened" centuries before him. and probably a bunch more that were graceful enough not to open their damn mouths about the experience. ha ha!

    word!

    tetra

  • PrimateDave
    PrimateDave

    Um, in the case of Enoch, transferred=nonstop time travel to the future paradise on Earth during the thousand year reign of Christ! LOL!

    Dave

  • Undecided
    Undecided

    If heaven is so great why doesn't any christain want to go there? They do every thing possible to stay on earth. Even Christ resurrected ones to keep them on earth. Even the anointed ones at Bethel try their best to stay around as long as possible. Doesn't this show hypocrisy? Do they really believe what they teach?

    Ken P.

  • acadian
    acadian

    Hey Gumby, Here's some thought's too consider... This is a except from an articule titled " Elijah, Enoch, and Moses" no author named ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The Bible says that
    "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11), "Enoch was translated that he should not see death" (Hebrews 11:5), and "God took him" (Genesis 5:24), and Moses appeared in the transfiguration with Jesus (Matthew 17:3). Do these scriptures prove that the three were in heaven (the throne of God) before Jesus was sent to Earth in the flesh?
    John 3:13,
    "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
    These words were spoken by Jesus himself at a time when only Christ had seen God (John 1:18). And how did He know that no man had ascended up to heaven...the throne of God? Because he came from there! Therefore, what heaven did Elijah go to? What about Enoch and Moses?
    Elijah
    Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind
    "into heaven" (2 Kings 2:1) by "a chariot of fire, and horses of fire" (verse 11). Yet, over nine hundred years after this event, Jesus Himself said "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13). Is this a bible contradiction? Did Elijah really ascend to heaven where God's throne is, even though Jesus said he didn't? If Elijah did not go to heaven, then where did he go?
    Three Heavens
    The Scripture mentions three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2), not just one!
    The first heaven
    is earth's atmosphere where birds fly (Genesis 1:20, Jeremiah 4:25; 34:20, Lamentations 4:19, Zephaniah 1:3). One of the Hebrew words for 'heaven' is shamayim. This same word is translated as 'sky' in the Scripture, as can be seen by comparing Genesis 7:3, "fowls also of the air," with Genesis 7:23, "fowl of the heaven." The word 'sky' and 'heaven' are used interchangeably from the same Hebrew word (Psalm 8:8). So the first heaven is synonymous with 'heights' or 'elevations.'
    Here are other examples to illustrate the first heaven. Exodus 19:20 says the Lord was on top of Mount Sinai when he called Moses up there, and God describes Mount Sinai as 'heaven' (Exodus 20:22, Deuteronomy 4:36). Here, everything above the ground is called 'heaven'.
    Another example of the first heaven is in Amos 9:1-3, where God states that at the time of this judgment, nobody will be able to flee away (verse 1), even
    "though they climb up to heaven" (verse 2). This "heaven" is defined in the next verse, verse 3, as climbing to the top of Mount Carmel.
    Another example is where the Scripture speaks of the
    "dew of heaven" (Genesis 27:28,39, Deuteronomy 33:28, Daniel 4:15-33; 5:21). The first heaven, from which dew comes, means the atmosphere, where the clouds and the wind roam. Therefore, everything above the ground is called 'heaven."
    Another Hebrew word for the first heaven is 'shachaq.' This same word for heaven (Psalm 89:6,37) is also translated as 'sky' or 'skies' (Deuteronomy 33:26; Job 37:18; Psalm 18:11), and as 'clouds' (Job 35:5; 36:28; Psalm 36:5; 68:34, Pro. 3:20; 8:28).
    The second heaven
    is outer space where the planets and stars exist (Genesis 1:14-17; 15:5; 22:17; 26:4, Deuteronomy 1:10; 17:3; Psalm 8:3, Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29). Usually the term "host of heaven" or "firmament of the heaven" is used to describe this second heaven.
    The third heaven
    is literally called "the third heaven" in 2 Corinthians 12:2. This third heaven is what Christ calls his "Father's house" (John 14:2), and both Christ and the Apostle Paul calls it "paradise" (Luke 23:43, 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, Revelation 2:7). This is where God and the heavenly sanctuary exist (1 Peter 3:22). This third heaven is also known as the "heaven of heavens" (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27, 2 Chronicles 2:6; 6:18, Nehemiah 9:6, Psalms 148:4), "The heavenly Jerusalem" (Galatians 4: 26; Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 3:12), the "kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 25:1, James 2:5), the "eternal kingdom" (2 Peter 1:11), the "eternal inheritance" (1 Peter. 1:4, Hebrews 9:15), and the "better country" (Hebrews 11:14,16). The fact that there are more than one 'heaven' can be shown by Psalm 115:16, "The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S." There are obviously two different 'heavens' being addressed in this one verse.
    Since Elijah could not have gone to the heaven of God's throne, then to which heaven did he go? He was not taken to God's heavenly throne (as some imagine). He was actually taken into this earth's atmosphere, the first heaven. There could be no whirlwind in any other place but in the atmosphere surrounding this earth.
    Why Taken Up?
    What was the reason for this unusual act of God? Why did he take Elijah up into the atmosphere? Was it to make him immortal? No! The Scripture says no word about that! In Hebrews 11:13,39, we read about the prophets who lived by faith and died without receiving the promises. So Elijah was not to be made Immortal, for that would give him pre-eminence above Jesus. But what does the Scripture reveal as the reason for this removal? 2 Kings 2:3 and 5 has the answer.
    Notice what the sons of the prophets said to Elisha:
    "Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day?" (Kings 2:3). Elijah was the leader of the sons of the prophets in that day. God had sent Elijah as His prophet to wicked king Ahab and to his son Ahaziah. Now God wanted Elisha to direct His work, as Ahaziah the king had died and a new king was ruling. So what did God do?
    He could not allow Elijah to be among the people with Elisha directing the work now. That would have been the same as disqualifying him. God never takes an office from a man when that man has been performing his duty well. The only thing God could do would have been to remove Elijah so that another would fulfill the office. This God did do. When he was taken up, Elijah's mantle dropped from him and Elisha picked it up (2 Kings 2:12-15). And what did the mantle mean? In Clarke's Commentary we note that it was "worn by prophets and priests as the simple insignia of their office" (Vol.2, p.484).
    The purpose of God in removing Elijah was to replace him with another man who would occupy Elijah's office in Israel for another fifty years. This work had to start under a new king, for Ahaziah had just died, and Elijah was already aging. So, as not to disqualify Elijah in the sight of the people, God took him away allowing the mantle which signified the office of Elijah to drop into the hands of Elisha. Thus, God preserves the name and office of His prophet.
    Where did Elijah go?
    This has been the perplexing problem to so many. He did not ascend to the throne of God, because Jesus said so! Also, notice in 2 Kings 3 and 5 that the sons of the prophets knew Elijah would be taken away by God in advance. They believed that Elijah was going to be taken to another location, which is why they were fearful that the Spirit of God might have dropped him
    "upon some mountain, or into some valley" (2 Kings 2:16). Elisha knew that God would preserve Elijah from falling, but at their insistence he permitted men to go in search for him, to no avail. And God did not say that Elijah was to die at that time. If he were, Elisha could have assumed his new office without the removal of Elijah, for we know that Elisha died in office after fulfilling his duty (2 Kings 13:14).
    The new king of Israel was another son of Ahab, Jehoram, or Joram as he is sometimes called. The beginning of his reign marked the year of his removal of Elijah (2 Kings 1:18 and 3:1). During this king's reign, Elisha was the recognized prophet of God (2 Kings 3:11). In the fifth year of Joram king of Israel, the son of the king of Judah began to reign along with his father in Judah (2 Kings 8:16). His name also was Jehoram. The first thing he did to establish his kingdom rule was to put his relatives to the sword lest they should claim the throne from him (2 Chronicles 21:4). For nearly six years he followed the ways of the nations about him and did evil in the sight of God.
    Almost ten years had now expired since Elijah was taken from the people. After this wicked rule by the Jewish king, God chose Elijah to write a letter and have it sent to the king! The contents of the letter are found in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15. From the wording of this letter, it is clear that Elijah wrote it after these events had occurred, for he speaks of them as past events, and of the diseases as future, Two years after the king became diseased the king died, having reigned only eight short years (2 Chronicles 21:18-20).
    This proves that the letter was written about ten years after Elijah had been taken to another location by the whirlwind. God used Elijah to convey the message because he was the prophet of God in the days of the present king's father, and the son was not going in the ways of his obedient father, Jehosophat. This letter proves that he was alive someplace else. The Bible does not reveal how much longer Elijah lived after writing the letter, but it does say that it is appointed for all men to die once (Romans 5:12,14, 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, Hebrews 9:27).
    A similar incident to Elijah's took place in Acts 8:39,40. Phillip was caught up into the first heaven, as Elijah was, and was transported to another location approximately 30 miles away. Another similar incident happened to Ezekiel, in which the spirit took him away (Ezekiel 3:12). The spirit lifted him up
    "between the earth and the heaven" and brought him "to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate" (Ezekiel 8:3). Afterwards, the spirit took him up to Chaldea (Ezekiel 11:24).
    Elijah may not have been found because he was transported further away than the fifty men searched (2 Kings 2:17). And, as far as being taken into heaven where God's throne is, we can know that neither Elijah nor Enoch nor Moses were taken into God's heavenly abode, because Jesus said, while he was on this earth, that
    "no man hath ascendeth to heaven" (John 3:13), and "No man hath seen God at any time" (John 1:18).
    Enoch
    Some people believe that Enoch did not die but was taken directly to heaven where God is. But, Enoch eventually died, as all humans die. How can we know? The apostle Paul mentioned the circumstances associated with Enoch in Hebrews 11:5, along with other men of faith, and then stated:
    "These all died in faith, not having received the promises" (Hebrews 11:13). Yes, Enoch died, and he did not receive the promise of heaven (verse 16) at the time the book of Hebrews was written.
    Based on Hebrews 11:5,13 and Jesus’ statement in John.3:13,
    "no man hath ascended up to heaven", how are we to understand the account of Enoch? Genesis 5:21-24 says that Enoch's days, alive on Earth, ended at 365 years old. The question is, did he die, was he taken to heaven alive, or was he transported to another location on Earth?
    Let us examine the
    bold phrase in Genesis 5:24, where it says, "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him" and compare the same Hebrew phrase in:
    Psalms 37:36,
    "Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found."
    Psalms 39:13,
    "O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and be no more."
    The Hebrew for the phrases in
    bold are the same Hebrew as Genesis 5:24. As in the Psalms, the phrase means the person "passed away" or would eventually die. Let’s look at the same phrase in the book of Genesis:
    Genesis 42:13,
    "And they said, Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is not." This was spoken by his brothers of Joseph. What’d they mean by "is not"?
    Genesis 44:20,
    "And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him." Here, the brothers recount their previous discussion about Joseph with Pharaoh. When they first said, "and one is not," they meant Joseph "is dead."
    Matthew 2:18,
    "In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not." Where were Rachel's children? Dead.
    Hebrews 11:5,
    "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:" Does the phrase that says Enoch "should not see death" mean Enoch never died? Hebrews 11:13, "These all died [including Enoch] in faith." But not only that, verse 13 goes on to say that they did not receive the promises. One of the promises was a heavenly country (verse 16). If Enoch were in heaven, wouldn't he have received that promise?
    Psalms 89:48,
    "What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah." Why would this Psalmist ask such a question concerning physical death if he believed Enoch did not see a physical death? The fact is, the Psalmist believed Enoch was in the grave and therefore asked this question.
    So what does the phrase
    "should not see death" mean? Notice it is not in the present tense, that he "did not see" death, but that he "should not see death." John 8:51, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death" [see also John 11:26]. This phrase must mean "the second death," since all the Apostles kept Jesus’ sayings and yet died the first death.
    Based on Hebrews 9:27,
    "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" and Hebrews 11:13, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises," we must conclude that Enoch died the first death. To believe Enoch did not die is to deny the plain word of many other scriptures as well. For example, Romans 5:12, "...so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" and Romans 5:14, "...death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned." Are we to believe that Enoch did not sin? Are we to believe that a man who was not yet cleansed of sin by the blood of Jesus could enter heaven and dwell in God's presence?
    Enoch’s translation
    But what about his translation in Hebrews 11:5? Does that mean he didn’t die? That’s what most people carelessly assume without proof. The Bible does not say that Enoch went to heaven when he was translated. Instead, it says he
    "was not found." According to Strong's, Thayer's and Bullinger's Greek Lexicons, "translate" means "to put or place in another place, to transport, to transfer." Nowhere in the Scripture does ‘translate’ mean to make immortal!
    The same Greek word is rendered "carried over" in Acts 7:16 where Jacob's body was ‘translated’ or ‘transported’ to Sychem, where he was buried! The Scriptures say Jacob was translated to the place of burial! God took Enoch and buried him somewhere so as not to be found, just as he did with the body of Moses in Deuteronomy 34:6. No man knows where Moses' or Enoch’s grave is. God hid them for reasons known only to Him.
    Notice another proof that ‘translate’ does not mean to make immortal. Paul wrote that the Father
    "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" (Colossians 1:13). The apostle Paul says that he was already translated, even though he was still physically alive! Although he was once part of the darkness of this world, he was translated, removed from darkness, into the light of the kingdom of God while he was physically alive!
    At the age of 65, Enoch had a son named Methuselah. But how long did Enoch walk with God?
    Genesis 5:22,
    "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters."
    So, Enoch followed God’s ways for three hundred years. Notice that the Scripture does not record that Enoch is still walking with God. It says that Enoch WALKED with God for three hundred years, and not one year more. Why? Because
    "all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years" (Genesis 5:23). Paul says, in Colossians 1:10, "That ye might walk worthy of the Lord." Enoch walked with God and pleased God. This is what Genesis 5:22,24 means when it says "Enoch walked with God."
    1 Corinthians 15:20-23 says that all die and all shall be resurrected, but Messiah must be first in the order. Enoch could not possibly have preceded him, especially if he were still flesh and blood as it says in verses 49-52. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace
    Acadian

  • acadian
    acadian

    Gumster said:

    I guess it's a good thing Adam and Eve disobeyed since only death brings us within the realm of god along with gods son and the angels
    . What if Jesus taught you have to enter heaven before you die, or you won't enter heaven after ? Excepted from "Heaven: a Future Hope or a Present Reality?" by Richard Anthony ""This might go contrary to what you have been taught, but scripture says nobody ascended to heaven. David was dead and buried (1 Kings 2:10), and he did not go to heaven. Some might claim that David did not go to Heaven during Old Testament times because he had to remain in the grave until the New Testament age came, until Christ died. And then after Christ died is when all the Old Testament saints went to heaven. However, this claim is proven false by the fact that after Christ died and the New Testament was ratified, even after the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost, the apostles taught that David had not ascended into Heaven!

    Acts 2:34, "For David is not ascended into the heavens..."

    Since the apostles taught this truth after Christ died, this means that David did not go to Heaven even after the current New Testament age came into being. But does this mean that nobody has ascended to Heaven? Well, even Christ himself taught about heavenly things (John 3:12), and He said that nobody ascends up to heaven:

    John 3:13, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

    In other words, you don't go up to heaven, heaven comes to you! Read the above verse again, and notice what Jesus said about heaven. While he was alive in the flesh, he stated that he "isin heaven!" (Not "was" in heaven, but "is" in heaven). He spoke of heaven as something that he was experiencing in the present while in his physical body; he did not say heaven was something that was yet future. Even when the writers of the New Testament wrote about "heaven" it was something they were experiencing at the moment, while in their physical bodies, and not something that was yet future to them. Before we go into these verses, let us learn more about what Christ taught about Heaven.

    Before he died, Jesus told Jews that they could not follow him to heaven:

    John 7:33-34, "Then said Jesus unto them [Jews, Pharisees, Chief Priests, Officers], Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him [God] that sent me. Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am [Heaven], thither ye cannot come."

    He even told the religious leaders (Pharisees) directly that even they could not go to heaven:

    John 8:21, "Then said Jesus again unto them [the Pharisees], I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go [Heaven], ye cannot come."

    Now, some may claim that the Jews could not ascend to Heaven because they did not accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour, but Christ taught the apostles the same thing as well!

    John 13:33, "Little children [eleven apostles], yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go [Heaven], ye cannot come; so now I say to you [the apostles]."

    As you can see, Christ taught his apostles that they cannot come to heaven. In other words, heaven is not something that we come to, heaven is something that comes to us! But what about verses that seem to teach we will go to Heaven?

    1. John 13:36, "Simon Peter [an apostle] said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go [Heaven], thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards."

      As you will see in this article, after they received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, the apostles spoke of Heaven as something they were experiencing while in their bodies. So, the apostles did follow Jesus afterwards, because Heaven came to them! Once they received the spirit, they did "...follow his steps" (1 Peter 2:21).

    2. John 14:2-3, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

      Compare John 14:2-3 with John 14:22-23. The word "mansions" in verse 2 is translated from the same Greek word as "abode" in verse 23! As a matter of fact, these are the only two places in scripture where this Greek word #3438, mone, appears!

      John 14:22-23, "Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

      Jesus was saying that those in whom He would come to dwell in were the mansions in his Father's house. Believers are "God's building" (1 Corinthians 3:9), and "as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house" (1 Peter 2:5). This "spiritual house" is the "mansion, " it is the "place," that Jesus prepared for us in John 14:2-3. (See also Ephesians 2:19-22).

      And how will Jesus and the Father come unto us and make their abode with us?

      John 14:16, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

      And who is the Comforter? Jesus tells us:

      John 14:26, "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,"

      The Comforter is the Holy Spirit! It is the Holy Spirit dwelling within us!

      You will also see in this article how the apostles wrote that they were "together with Christ in the heavenlies" while in their physical bodies, thus fulfilling this verse as well. Christ did come again, and received them, and Christ was in them, and by Christ being in them, heaven was in them, because that is where Christ is!

    3. 2 Corinthians 5:1-2, "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:"

      In verse 1, the "earthly house of this tabernacle" refers to the physical body, in which the spirit is represented as dwelling or sojourning for a time, and from which it is to be liberated at death. When our bodies are dissolved, our spirit will return to "a house not made with hands." This house is not a literal house, but spiritual. In other words, we have a "spirit," and it will be housed with God, who is "eternal in the heavens." This coincides with Ecclesiastes 12:7, "the spirit shall return unto God."

      In verse 2, it says we desire to be clothed with this house "which is from heaven." Notice this verse does not says this house is in heaven, but from heaven. God's throne is in heaven. Our "spiritual body" will be clothed by God from heaven, not in Heaven. ""

    4. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Peace
      Acadian

  • gumby
    gumby

    Acadian, that was an interesting read and I like the way the author speaks as he is easy to follow. You'll find however that there are other other cultures of people with ideas of multiple heavens and the jews adopted these same ideas. Why would god tranfer Enoch yet not transfer Moses, or Noah, or Abraham as these men walked with god the same as did Enoch? Whats the difference if god kills you or you die naturally? Btw...when are we getting together to share the peace pipe

    Ken,

    If heaven is so great why doesn't any christain want to go there? They do every thing possible to stay on earth. Even Christ resurrected ones to keep them on earth. Even the anointed ones at Bethel try their best to stay around as long as possible. Doesn't this show hypocrisy? Do they really believe what they teach?

    I've often wondered the same as you do. Why do witnesses greive so hard when they lose a loved one when they know this loved one has a guaranteed spot in the New System and will be resurrected......especially when they feel the end is only a short time away and the resurrection hope will follow? Why do ANY believers grieve so badly at the death of a loved one when these have a hope of eternal life?

    In all fairness, nobody wants to lose someone they love.....even if they have a hope, but it seems the greiving process of a believer is just as hard as a nonbeliever losing a loved one.

    Tetra,

    if you see jesus as an instance of nature-opened sentience in the evolution of the consciousness our species, then the buddha "ascended", "awakened" centuries before him.

    Silly fella....everyone knows Buddha was to damn fat to leave the ground

    Gumby

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