by LittleToe 141 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Hi little toe
I`m new here. Just want to say that I am and have had a similar exp to you - getting to know Christ and loving him. But in my case I have come to this after lots and lots of study. A devout JW 8 months ago and now a follower of Jesus Christ cautiously and non confrontationally though. How amazing is that. It seems to me that the new heavens and new earth are both for everyone, not 2 classes I mean.
Bernadette
Didier:
Ain't ecstatic linguistics fun?
Sure is, though sociology, and especially psychology are my own preferences. I've got Undr on order, though the reviews seem to indicate that I may be in for a challenging read
Hillary:Your candid and incisive comments are taken in the manner that I'm sure you intended
What convinced you that you were speaking to "empty air"?
So essentially loss of faith in a book led to loss in faith in God?
Something intrigues me about those who profess losing belief, after allegedly feeling they connected to something as a JW (an experience with which I would concur. though of a different order of magnitude to that which I write of in this thread). Often it appears to be down to loss of faith in the bible, usually after reading much of the information on this site, and a number of certain book suggestions. I have to ask, even going so far as invoking parsimony, is it likely that all the bible writers were into fiction/deceit or suffered schizophrenia? Is it so unimaginable that they might have been attempting to put into the poor medium of words something of that which they felt they had experienced? There are many similar modern-day claims, are these similarly likely to all be due to fiction/deceit or suffering schizophrenia?
rationalising the 'Beauty and the Beast' side of God
Likely the most difficult part of belief (unless you're a Gnostic or Deist, of course), spawning a myriad of works including the bible!
I believe that at some level an element of delusion ( I use this word in its more benign form ) is present.
Of course it is, as with anyone who subscribes to an idealogy, and I include myself in this. Alas, humanists fare no better.
James:
It's you.
Anima/animus?
Joh.1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Outlaw:I suspect you may be right
Sirona:
Blessed be!
DDog:
I find it interesting that people react more to your emotional reaction than what prompted it.
People more often respond to that which they can empathise with, hence feelings are easier to understand than experiences.
BB/ Bernadette:
Those are lovely stories. Thanks for sharing them
Toreador:I have written what I have written, but to be clear, I'm not talking about anything with symptoms of sleep paralysis.
HL:
Maybe we'll get to have that conversation one day
LT,
So essentially loss of faith in a book led to loss in faith in God?
Not really Ross.
Loss of faith in the Bible played a part in opening my eyes to other issues regarding the unseen world. When I realized how much faith I had been placing in something that did not warrant this measure of faith, I began to examine many other things that pertained to what one might describe as the 'spiritual world' but this time with my intellect intact and not one that had been prepared and manipulated by the WTS. In this sense a person could claim that the WTS led to my loss of faith in the Bible and then my loss of faith in a God, but that would not really be accurate or even fair.
What you, and many religionists seem to be able to do, is to believe without answers. I find this enormously difficult. A person might say to me, and even believe, 'how do you know that God did not create the universe three seconds ago, with age and memory created within all things'. I could not prove this an incorrect assumption, but I also could not believe it, yet a person with faith might. This illustration imho is not so far removed from asking me to believe that a supernatural force is watching over us all, working his will through mankind, and yet has chosen not to give one little piece of irrefutable evidence that he/she/it is actually there over tens of thousands of years. On the contrary, if he/she/it exists the experience of its 'creation' has been one of a pain and suffering that makes belief even more difficult.
I have a great regard for your experiences Ross. I know that you are a level-headed and intelligent person and that something happened to you. I was speaking a couple of years ago with a jazz pianist, Keith Jarrett. Jarrett has made his fame on concerts in which he, without planning, written music or any musical structure, plays spontaneous music, often without stop for two hours. The next day, he does the same thing and his music is very different from that played the previous night. He believes that a supernatural force inspires him and guides him and that he is merely the tool of the real master. I asked him why he thought this, and why his playing was not just an emotional connection with a honed and practiced sense of techinique and creativity. He related an experience similar to you own that he had many years ago, but without Christ.
An autistic child may be just as talented.
Best regards - HS
An area that is of more interest to me is why a certain sensation should consistently accompany a desire to pray for someone far away, with a result that through the experience of hindsight I can now come to expect. With one sensation I can expect the result to be death, and with another sensation I can expect to shortly be overwhelmed with an empathic coordination with their innermost emotions (which sux when it's grief), and so on. These are not self generated, as I have experienced being woken in the middle of the night by such things, driving along a road, or being in the middle of a conversation when it occurs. Thus I have no way of providing evidence that could be subjected to scientific rigour.
Hi Ros,
Care to explain what you mean by a sensation which you can expect the result to be death?
Thank you,
Tor
Hillary:
What you, and many religionists seem to be able to do, is to believe without answers.
You're the master of back-handed compliments, my friend. Since when did I acquire the label "religionist" in your eyes?
Just because you have no answers, or have been shown no evidence, reflects little on what another may have. Each of us tolerate more or less ambiguity, I'll give you that. Since life is full ambiguity, and I work with it every day, having a reasonable threshold is a matter of survival. Our brains have evolved that capability. Do you believe that? Are you satisfied with that answer? Have you sifted through the evidence to support that assertion and found it wanting or plausible?
There are many things in life that we believe without answers. Good science attempts to glean these answers. IMHO without those who believe and speculate there would be little impetus to research and achieve.
Tor:I'm afraid I don't care to elaborate, no. Reading the preceding sentence to the one you've highlighted might help a little, though.
Best wishes,
Ross.
LT,
You're the master of back-handed compliments, my friend. Since when did I acquire the label "religionist" in your eyes?
I think you are being a trifle over-sensitive about my comments Ross. My comments are not back-handed. Perhaps you are imputing a feral brightness to me that is not actually present. I quote from a dictionary
religionist - a person who manifests devotion to a deity
Is this a correct description of yourself or not? If not I will gladly change it so as not to offend, as that was with all honesty not my intention in any of my comments.
Just because you have no answers, or have been shown no evidence, reflects little on what another may have. Each of us tolerate more or less ambiguity, I'll give you that. Since life is full ambiguity, and I work with it every day, having a reasonable threshold is a matter of survival. Our brains have evolved that capability. Do you believe that? Are you satisfied with that answer? Have you sifted through the evidence to support that assertion and found it wanting or plausible?
I understand what you are saying Ross, and were my experience unique I would agree with the sentiment of your comments. The reality is though, that what I speak of are issues that have plagued and will continue to plague the human family until there are tangible answers. My point of view is far from unique.
There are many things in life that we believe without answers.
With most things Ross, there is an expectation of answers. Experience has taught us that tangibility has answers, though we may be a long way from knowing the exact answers. For example, after years of research the origin of the HIV virus has been with definition identified. The first case in humans of HIV was in Mombassa in 1937. The disease at that moment transferred from one of three types of chimpanzees ( the other two are immune to the disease ) to a person who cannot be identified. Now, I had no idea where this disease started until the scientists got to work, but they were dealing with the tangible and there was an expectation of answers.
With the issues that we are discussing, which have been earnestly discussed since the dawn of time, we have seen no expectation of answers. As brighter folk than us have attempted to resolve this issue over thousands of years without satisfaction, we might assume that these answers may never be forthcoming. That is why I said that as a religionist, yourself and others are prepared to believe without answers, in fact, without even the expectation of answers and this presents me with an enormous difficulty.
As I have noted, I am a reluctant disbeliever and envy those, who like my wife, have a surety in faith. I once told you that I met with William Barclay many years ago. He was one of the finest men that I have met and I would gladly give up my place on the planet if it were populated with people like Barclay. My lack of belief is not to be confused with a lack of respect.
Best regards - HS
LittleToe, I have been absent much, and am responding hear having read only your initial post. I suspect this is not wise but I will respond out of love, if not wisdom. It is not about a place. You did well in conveying that, and yet look how you have grown since that thought came to you. It is a journey, and yet it is not about the journey. It is a concept that is about LOVE, and love is bonding, connectedness, of unity. This involves a sense of oneness with everyone/thing, a wellingness to sacrifice for the interest of others, devotion to a universal obfective rather than a personal/ego agenda. It is only about a person, or name (such as Jesus), as far as that person or name inspires the concept of love. You may understand that more than myself. I miss you as my friend. But don't doubt that I love you. Steve
Hmm... interesting thought about "expectation of answers" HS...
I think the mystical quest (or the mystical part of the quest, which may be unconscisous) is not so much about "answers" than "answering," or "response" (which may or may not be expected and/or perceived as "personal," depending on one's cultural background). From this perspective any answer sounds a bit like "42"...
Nice to see you Steve...
Hillary:
I think you are being a trifle over-sensitive about my comments Ross.
Nawww, just enjoying a robust discussion and taking it to you. I'm pretty hard to offend
Religionist
I'm working to the folllowing definition, which IMHO is in more common use: a person adhering to a religion; especially: a religious zealot.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religionist
The reality is though, that what I speak of are issues that have plagued and will continue to plague the human family until there are tangible answers. My point of view is far from unique.
Of course we do, and in no ways do I seek to minimise that. I guess my point is that no idealogy has successfully grappled with all of these things. To think that we have the ultimate framework of answers is to delude ourselves.
With the issues that we are discussing, which have been earnestly discussed since the dawn of time, we have seen no expectation of answers.
I disagree. I suspect that one day we will have such answers. This is a problem that is much larger than ourselves and we've been nibbling away at the edges of it. To turn our backs on the whole question, at this juncture, would to my mind be a little ironic. It would be throwing away thousands of years of work.
That is why I said that as a religionist, yourself and others are prepared to believe without answers, in fact, without even the expectation of answers and this presents me with an enormous difficulty.
I think (without rancor) that this is a little disingenuous. You presume to know the hopes and expectations of all those you broadly define as "religionists" (allegedly including myself in the generalisation). My position isn't unique, hence even biblical source claim efforts to "know the height and depth and breadth", and an anticipation to "know even as we are known" and to "see him face to face, for we shall be like him".
My lack of belief is not to be confused with a lack of respect.
I recall our discussions about Barclay, and there's no confusion, I assure you. As I previously stated, I'm enjoying the discussion. Just expect me to take you to task over terms and definitions, from time to time, as I like to minimise miscommunication insofar as it is possible.
Steve:
Hi pal, long time no hear!
"Amen agus amen!"
Didier:
mystical quest ... 42
You continue to astound me, my friend
Didier
"42"
LT and HS It's good to see all of you guys, old friends, together again.
Thanks for drawing us out LT
Steve
