evolution or creation? lets talk...

by Sam87 537 Replies latest jw friends

  • Beardo
    Beardo
    Push away at buttons, but do try to do so in a fashion which doesn't make yourself appear foolish; thus my comments about how dumb ass it is to be anti-intellectual.

    - the fool isn't always the worst card in the pack you know

    Nice to see you totally refuse to engage with my point; i.e., how unreasonable it is for those with little or no knowledge of a subject to try to engage in a meaningful discussion about it from the premise of "if I don't "get" or know something then it can't be so". No smart reply? Illustrative!

    You see - I actually agree with you there. I think its good to go away, do a little reseach, have a think about it and then return with your answer. I didn't engage originally due to sheer laziness.

    And please don't re-run the tired old myth of atheists/agnostics having no sense of spirituality. It's as hacknied and trite as white men having no rythm. Atheists and agnostics CAN have a sense of spirituality; it's just we look for slightly different explanations for these feelings instead of warming over millenia-old shamanistic nonsense.

    I wouldn't say Shamans are completely nonsensical or brush off myths and folk legends as easy as you seem to do. I did think about accusing your heart of being a 'swinging-brick' and was going to add that you had a lack of warmth, but point taken, it isn't the best retort in the book.

    Although we would probably have to dissect what 'spirituality' actually is first of all and then see if that quality could be applied from individual to individual.

    I have learnt a lot at ocult forums; what I learnt was that not once, ever, in all of history, has any paranormal or occult happening been proved to have taken place to the standards that one would expect in a science lab or court of law. Doesn't mean they aren't 'real' outside of the minds of those experiencing them (and yes, it's easy to explain groups having the same perceptions without invoking the paranormal), just no one yet has proved they are real outside of the minds of those experiencing them.

    Well, yes, I have seen you write that before at this forum and I would argue that I have evidence of "supernatural" activity, but nothing that would fully satisfy your scientific investigation, so therefore, you are more than welcome to dismiss it as figments of my own imagination and the imagination of others

    I BELIEVE that there are other worldly intelligences operating and that we simply can't detect them due to our limited range of senses. I would base this around study, and having been involved with many people who have had bizarre encounters with what cannot easily be explained and these encounters ' appearing' to be of an intelligent/sentient origin.

    Goes back to one of my original questions to you; how do you know you're not imagining things? Wishful thinking + enculturation? How come others have similar 'spiritual' experiences which contradict yours; are they right? Are you right? Are you both wrong? Hmmmm.... no answers?Avoiding a question which effects the credibility of your belief structure is an admission of the weaknesses of your belief structure.

    See above in red.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Abaddon

    Actually, some of my most basic socalled spiritual experiences are very similar to what some of the other socalled spiritual people here have seen. As well, in reading a bit about basic hindu cosmology, i was surprised to find that some of those elements are there, also. Not that that will disturb your sleep, or anything, but still kind of interesting.

    S

  • Beardo
    Beardo
    could someone please tell me what has been stated here that would be considered a truly unique presentation on this subject?

    nothing ........ sadly - time to move to another thread - waste of energy.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Beardo

    Glad we can have a nice relaxed conversation without anyone getting bent out of shape.

    I wouldn't say Shamans are completely nonsensical...

    But would you base your understanding of the origins of life on Earth on their sayings? Or go to them to talk to a dead person? Or use them to curse an enemy? Or go to them for medical treatment consisting of nothing more than incantations or fetishes (not the kinky one, the original meaning of the word).

    Notice I exclude medicinal preparations. Native peoples are normally quite experienced at exploiting the medicinal or other properties of local plants. They might dance around for an hour and make a pulp out of six ingredients including their spit just like their daddy taught them, but one of the ingredients probably has an active ingredient that can help.

    or brush off myths and folk legends as easy as you seem to do.

    Ah, it's not total dismissal but differentiation, e.g.;

    Lots of tribes have flood myths because there have been lots of floods and some have been quite big to a primatives perspective. Doesn't mean there was a global flood.

    • Science is "fairly sure" that the Babylonian creation myth involving blood and semen is wrong.
    • Lightning once happened because of <insert diety here>. Then someone discovered how it actually happens. Doesn't mean the diety ever made lightning.
    • Willow bark has often been used in tribal medicine as it actually contains an active medicinal ingredient.
    Although we would probably have to dissect what 'spirituality' actually is first of all and then see if that quality could be applied from individual to individual.

    That suggests there is a right way to 'do it' and a wrong way to 'do it'. Why so dogmatic ;-) ?

    Well, yes, I have seen you write that before at this forum and I would argue that I have evidence of "supernatural" activity, but nothing that would fully satisfy your scientific investigation, so therefore, you are more than welcome to dismiss it as figments of my own imagination and the imagination of others.

    Didn't I just do that?

    If someone made the claims about a finance scheme and supplied the sort of evidences a believer in mumbo-jumbo supplied to prove their beliefs, and I invested in the financial scheme I would be a fool, and EVERYONE would agree with that.

    If someone makes paranormal claims and supplies the typical evidences, those who believe think someone calling believers a fool is being unfair!Why the double standard?

    Oh, by the way, I will turn the $100 you send me into $1,000,000,000 - here's someone who says I did it for them;

    "Abaddon made me rich and I got the original dollar back too"

    Mr A. F. I. G. Ment Esq.

    I

    BELIEVE that there are other worldly intelligences operating and that we simply can't detect them due to our limited range of senses.

    I would base this around study, and having been involved with many people who have had bizarre encounters with what cannot easily be explained and these encounters ' appearing' to be of an intelligent/sentient origin.

    But why if what they have experienced is real is there no PROOF? Is it a trick to test our faith? Not ONE prophecy has come true that was incontravertably and unambiguously made prior to the event. And your cachcism doesn't explain why others (who believe just as strongly as you) have experiences contradictory to your own.

    Do a little research on cold reading and the psychomotor effect. People can believe anything if they want to. We of all people should know this. They can believe so strongly even when their 'gift' is proven unrepeatable in tests, they still believe they have q gift and make excuses for not performing under test (i.e. dowsers).

    Satanus

    Oh, I've had the Universe laugh at me several times. It normaly involves appropriately timed rainbows. Despite my monkey brain being really quite impressed I know what a git one can make of one's self by reading significance into random events.

    I also love the Hindu Atman/atman concept and reincarnation. Me liking it doesn't make it true, just means I will be selective about what evidence I consider in deciding if it is true.

    I am not that important, nor is our entire species. Most belief systems are base on conceit; it even spreads to sci-fi, like the Roddenbury conciet we will be the peace-corp of the Universe rather than cocktail waiters on a marginal planet only famous as a holiday resort for having an atmosphere AND a moon and sun whose distance/radius ratios allowed a total eclipse observable from the surface in street clothes.

    I 'got over' the extinction of my personality well in advance of it happening. I can only be pleasently surprised, unless Biblegod is real AND the disgusting pervert fundies make him out to be.

  • dido
    dido

    Abaddon- round 3 here we go again! Right, let`s get this straight, i know the basis of evolution and i choose to believe in creation over it. Nothing is proven. Now when it comes to bacteria, it`s the body that has built up resistence to the antibiotics not the bacteria, i know as i am allergic to most of them, but i still get bacteria in my body, but have to try different drugs as the body becomes immune to the drugs! So sorry, you just have to learn more! I suggest you read the book of genesis and find out more about creation, rather than trying to browbeat me into reading about evolution theories! I`m willing to talk but not to be bullied into what other people want me to believe, i had enough of that in the wts. Jog on.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Beardo:

    I thought you were some kind of Christian? Doesn't blowing Genesis out of the water cause a bit of conflict for you? Surely if you undermine the foundation of the Bible, you undermine the other texts as well?

    Seems you read Abaddon's posts, over the last few years, and neglected mine

    I'll take the opportunity to challenge your understanding of what the title "Christian" means. If you think it is synonymous with "fundamentalist" then you are far off the beaten track. I have no conflict.

    Dido:

    There's no easy way to break this to ya. Abaddon has it the right way around. Doncha hate it when he get's all smug n stuff?

    In simple terms your body is full of good and bad bacteria. The bad bacteria harm you, and so we use antibiotics to kill them. These same bacteria evolve defenses against the antibiotics and continue harming you, requiring stronger drugs to kill them. Your body doesn't want to harm itself, and ironically neither do any of the bacteria. Some are just more benign than others.

    While I love the creaton account of Genesis for it's simplicity of describing terraforming from a scientifically limited ancient perspective, I can also appreciate how the theory of evolution fills in many of the gaps by aligning the facts that the archeological record presents to us.

    Creation and Evolution are not mutually exclusive theories. They can exist happily together in the same brain

    Gyles (Abaddon):
    Play nice, now!!!

  • Beardo
    Beardo
    But would you base your understanding of the origins of life on Earth on their sayings? Or go to them to talk to a dead person? Or use them to curse an enemy? Or go to them for medical treatment consisting of nothing more than incantations or fetishes.

    I would take into consideration what they had to say about our origins - look at other myths & legends, see if there are any links between tales and come to a decision as to whether I believe there is something worth taking on board, based around my current understanding of reality and what I choose to believe. Of course it may be necessary to put on a pair of metaphorical-filtering lenses.

    Dead people - hmm, nope.

    Curse an enemy - depends if it works - erm, nope. Probably not.

    Notice I exclude medicinal preparations.

    Good. There is evidence to suggest that certain tribes have special knowledge in this area, they know which plants to go to. I am not qualified enough to say whether this is "hit or miss" and based around centuries of experimentation or intuitive insight - but having studied ancient Egypt (admittedly the occult side of their knowledge.... and no, I'm not an expert... yet) those ancients appeared to have had great insight into our human form without the medical sciences we take for granted today. My jury has been out for a while concerning how they obtained this knowledge, but I am willing to delve into the occult world for answers.

    That suggests there is a right way to 'do it' and a wrong way to 'do it'. Why so dogmatic ;-) ?

    There may well be a right way, or at least a series of determining factors.

    And your cachcism doesn't explain why others (who believe just as strongly as you) have experiences contradictory to your own.

    I'm not sure what a cachism is? I'm also not sure if you know what my experiences are, as I haven't really gone in to them in detail, nor do I wish to. As to the variety of people I have connected with who have had odd encounters, they range from ghostly encounters to UFO (in the sky) encounters. Some of these events being witnessed by several people at the same time. Some of these events having distinct effects on the environment (objects moving and temperature shifts etc).

    Do a little research on cold reading and the psychomotor effect. People can believe anything if they want to.

    Yes, I've looked at this and taken it into consideration in the past. There is truth there, but outside of this, there are still many, many unexplained phenomena and some of these experiences show a degree of intelligence and often to observers, manipulation or mischief.

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    Dido:

    Abaddon- round 3 here we go again! Right, let`s get this straight, i know the basis of evolution and i choose to believe in creation over it. Nothing is proven. Now when it comes to bacteria, it`s the body that has built up resistence to the antibiotics not the bacteria, i know as i am allergic to most of them, but i still get bacteria in my body, but have to try different drugs as the body becomes immune to the drugs! So sorry, you just have to learn more! I suggest you read the book of genesis and find out more about creation, rather than trying to browbeat me into reading about evolution theories! I`m willing to talk but not to be bullied into what other people want me to believe, i had enough of that in the wts. Jog on.

    I can see how you are confused about the developmental change relating to bacteria and antibiotics. It's actually the bacteria which mutates (changes) not the recipient of the antibiotic. Here is a link to the USA Food and Drug Association which explains, in layman terms, why sum bugs (bacteria) becomes resistant to antibiotics. steve Edited: oops, forgot the link. Here you go: http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/795_antibio.html
  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    Dido, you also asked for evidence of evolution today. Some have already provided some evidence for you, but nothing so far has satisfied your curiosity.

    So, can I ask, what type of evidence are you looking for? What evidence would you need to see to satisfy you that there is some merit to evolution?

    steve

  • TopHat
    TopHat

    When I was a child....I was taught both evolution as a fact and creation and at one point I believed we humans got here by evolution...but as I got older and wiser...the notion of an Inelligent Creator made much more sense to me. AND that was before I became a JW.

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