Who is Jesus? Is he God? (page 5)

fjtoth

Look at Daniel 10:1-11, here Daniel sees and speaks with Christ in his pre-human form. Compare this with Revelation 1:12-16. By comparing these texts we can see that this IS Jesus.

Lilly,

The glorious person seen in Daniel 10 "was a certain man dressed in linen." In verses 12 and 13 he tells Daniel that he was helped by Michael the archangel in a struggle with "the prince of the Persian kingdom." Doesn't it demean God's Son to suggest that he was not as great as Michael and that he needed help in a strenuous effort against someone?

Frank

lovelylil

Frank,

to answer your question - no. And the description of that man Daniel saw matches the one of Jesus in Revelation. All the Angels support God so why can't Angels support Jesus? He is not saying he cannot defeat someone without help that is not what support means at all.

I can see where you are coming from but maybe you can answer this Q for me? If Jesus existed prior to coming to earth, which we know he did, how could there be no mention of him in the OT?

Will2Power

Jesus is patently a lesser God than the father, for numerous scriptural reasons. What did Jesus say about where he got everything from, whose will, teaching, instructions, etc, he was following? God read the gospels again - unless you are thoroughly predisposed to the Athanasian creed you would never see any trinity in them. Any authority Jesus has is only derived from and given by the Father. One has to be blind to not see that Jesus is subordinate to the Will of the father prior to his incarnation, during it, and after it. The father is the head of Christ (1 Cor 11:3), Jesus submits himself to God and hands the kingdom back to Him (1 Cor ?) - all after his return to heaven. Only the father is the Almighty God, the son is only a mighty god.

fjtoth

Lilly,

the description of that man Daniel saw matches the one of Jesus in Revelation.

Really? Note the differences:

Daniel: "dressed in linen"
Revelation: "clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across his chest with a golden sash" (no mention of linen)
Daniel: "his body was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning"
Revelation: "his head and his hair were white like white wool, like snow" (no mention of beryl or lightning)
Daniel: "his eyes were like flaming torches" (plural)
Revelation: "his eyes were like a flame of fire" (singular)
Daniel: "the sound of his words like the sound of a vast multitude of people"
Revelation: "his voice was like the sound of many waters" (no mention of people)

All the Angels support God so why can't Angels support Jesus?

Where are you getting the word "support" from? The word is "help," not "support." It is blasphemous to say that God needs help or support from anyone.

If Jesus existed prior to coming to earth, which we know he did, how could there be no mention of him in the OT?

As you mentioned earlier, there are many OT prophecies concerning the Messiah. But human reasoning cannot successfully contradict the Scriptures. Either you accept what Hebrews 1:1,2 and 2:2,3 clearly say, or you pit yourself against the facts of history as given in the Bible.

Frank

Mondo1

Lilly, Would it satisfy you if I could give you a couple of examples of where "God" appears and it can be shown conclusively in those specific cases that it is not Jesus? If so, I will be happy to do as much. Please let me know. Mondo

ellderwho

Jesus is patently a lesser God than the father.

When did this happen?

jwfacts

The Nature of God is beyond human comprehesion, and debate over whether Father=Son and God is triune has gone on since Jesus death. If understanding the intricate nature of God was necessary for salvation then I believe it would be clearly presented in the Bible, which it isnt, hence the debates.

The NT makes it very clear that we should worship Jesus and call him God. That is good enough for me.

Navigator

The position that makes sense to me is one stated by Charles Fillmore, the founder of the Unity movement when he was asked that very same question: His reply was:

"Jesus was NOT God! However, he so gave up his sense of personal self and so identified with his Father God that it becomes difficult to tell where God leaves off and Jesus begins."

lovelylil

Frank,

thanks for your input. The word I used "support" was clearly not the right one. Sorry for that. Believe me I am not trying to blaspheme God.

The clothing in Daniel and Revelation is different because in Revelation we have Christ as king and thus he is wearing the long Robe. The flaming eyes of fire and torches are a similiar way of expressing the same thing. We cannot expect Daniel and John to use the same exact wording can we? Ditto on the voice - while not using the same words exactly they both convey the same thing, that it was a strong, booming voice. I believe they are the same. I am not ruling out that I am simply wrong.

Can you or anyone else find any scripture where an Angel is described in the same detail as this man in Daniel? Michael the Archangel is mentioned too but not described in beautiful detail such as this "man". Also why is the term "someone like a son of man" used? We know we are made in God's image and thus Christ's image. But what about Angels, could they be said to be "someone like a son of man"? I don't know I am just asking.

About Hebrews: I explained that one already and fully believe what it says but still - it does not dismiss the idea that Christ who is the image of God is the one that people saw in the OT. If he was not then can anyone explain how some people said they "saw God" and yet lived? And the NT says "no one has seen God at any time?" How can we reconcile these verses? Thanks in advance for anyone who can shed light on this.

Mondo,

I am going to pm you because I would love to take you up on your offer. Thanks, Lilly

Mondo1

Lilly,

There are a number of New Testament passages that make it clear that it is the "Father" that is the God within the Old Testament. Already Hebrews 1:1-2 has been discussed. We see that "the God" that "spoke by the prophets" was the Father, not the Son. For in Hebrews 1 we read of "the God" that did this and in verse 2 we read of the son of that God.

Let us consider Hebrews 3:4-5: "For every house is built by someone; but He who built all things is God. And "Moses" truly "was faithful in all his house" as a ministering servant, for a testimony of the things having been spoken; "

God built everything and Moses was "faithful in all his house." This text is quote from Numbers 12:7, where God states: "It is not so with My servant Moses! He is faithful in all My house." Going back to Hebrews 3, we can continue into verse 6: "but Christ as Son over His house, whose house we are, if truly we hold fast the boldness and rejoicing of the hope firm to the end." Christ was not the God who possessed the house, who was speaking in Num. 12:7, but the Son of that God.

Also, Acts 3:15, which quotes from Exodus 3:15, refering to the God that spoke in that text. We are there told that Jesus is "his servant," which is the servant of the God that spoke in Exodus 3:15, not that God himself or a person of that God.

Further, Acts 3:25-26, which quotes God speaking to Abraham in Genesis 22:18. We see that Jesus isn't that God or a person of that God, because we read of that God who spoke there, and again Jesus is said to be that one's servant. Acts 5:30-31 supports this too, also referencing that text.

Finally, we might consider Jesus' words of John 8:54. "Jesus answered, If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, whom you say is your God."

The God of the Jews, the God of the Old Testament, according to Jesus, was not a Trinity or Jesus himself, but that one was his Father. He is the God of the Old Testament, the Jehovah who alone is the most high. (Psa. 83:18)

Mondo

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

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