by zev 61 Replies latest jw friends
3. They have their public relations guy telling people that they are not spirit inspired but just earnest bible students like any other religion.
Thats the second time I've read somebody commenting this on this board. Is this for real? Could somebody point me to a thread, link, etc. that shows this?
Thanks, appreciate your effort/time.
Wish you the best.
RedPill.
RedPill, the thread you refer to is LDH's Called JR Brown regarding Cano Pedophile situation
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/11/115824/1.ashx
His response to whom he assumed was a worldly reporter, were highly revealing.
Here's how the MIA chart looks on a graph.
The Witnesses who die before Armageddon just as well have never been Witnesses. There's no advantage for them at all. If they die before Armageddon they obviously were not a part of the "great crowd" and if they were not a part of the "great crowd" they can't be "other sheep" either. They are just dead in a common sinner's grave waiting re-creation in a perfect replica body for judging along with the sinners who lived the life the Witnesses didn't live.
They have all paid for their sins by their personal deaths because the wages sin pays is death. What benefit is there for a Witness who dies before Armageddon that their non-Witness neighbor does not have?
The cart's ahead of the horse. The "great crowd" is identified after Armageddon, not before. The "great crowd" is identified as people LIVING through Armageddon.
The Society isn't reminding Witnesses of this element of their teaching for obvious reasons:-)
Gary, hope you are well. You are still right on target. Every time I read one of your posts, I wish I had written it.
Brant
Actually, the WTS did have a QFR on whether people are of the great crowd or other sheep. My understanding was that everyone who is going to be resurrected that dies before the GT, are other sheep. Those who survive the GT are the great crowd.
***
w95 4/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***Technically speaking, is there a difference between the Biblical terms "other sheep" and "great crowd"?
Yes, though we should not be unduly sensitive about word usage or be upset if someone uses the terms interchangeably.
Most Christians are familiar with the passages where we find these terms. John 10:16 is one. There Jesus said: "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd." The other expression, "great crowd," appears at Revelation 7:9. We read: "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands."
Let us consider John 10:16 first. Who are the sheep? Well, it would be good to fix in mind that all of Jesus’ loyal followers are referred to as sheep. At Luke 12:32, he called those of his disciples who would be going to heaven the "little flock." A flock of what? Of sheep. The "sheep" of the "little flock" will be part of the Kingdom in heaven. However, there are others, those with a different hope, whom Jesus also views as sheep.
We can see this in John chapter 10. After speaking about sheep such as his apostles whom he would call to life in heaven, Jesus added in verse 16: "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring." Jehovah’s Witnesses have long recognized that in this verse Jesus was speaking of people having the prospect of life on earth. Many faithful ones in pre-Christian times, such as Abraham, Sarah, Noah, and Malachi, had such prospects. So we can rightly include them as part of the "other sheep" of John 10:16. During the Millennium, such faithful pre-Christian witnesses will be resurrected and will then learn of and accept Christ Jesus, becoming "other sheep" of the Fine Shepherd.
We also know that since the general call of the heavenly class ended, millions have become true Christians. These too are rightly termed "other sheep," since they are not part of the "little flock." Rather, the other sheep today look forward to living right on into an earthly paradise.
Now, what can be said about the identity of the "great crowd" mentioned at Revelation 7:9? Well, look at verse 13 and the question, "Who are they and where did they come from?" We find the answer at Revelation 7:14: "These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation." So the "great crowd" is composed of those who come out of, or survive, the great tribulation. As verse 17 says, they will be ‘guided to fountains of waters of life’ on earth.
Understandably, though, for these to survive the approaching great tribulation, they must earlier have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, becoming true worshipers. Hence, though Revelation 7:9 is describing this crowd after the tribulation, we may apply the term "great crowd" to all with earthly hopes who are rendering Jehovah sacred service now, just before the great tribulation breaks out with the nations’ attack on false religion.
In summary, we might remember "other sheep" as the broader term, encompassing all of God’s servants having the hope of living forever on earth. It includes the more limited category of sheeplike ones today who are being gathered as a "great crowd" with the hope of living right through the impending great tribulation. Most of those loyal Christians alive today are of the "other sheep," and they are part of the "great crowd" as well.
It is worth repeating that, fine as it is to be clear on these specifics, there is no need for any Christian to be overly word conscious—what might be called word critical. Paul warned about some who were "puffed up with pride" and involved in "debates about words." (1 Timothy 6:4) If we personally recognize certain distinctions between terms, fine. Yet, we need not, either outwardly or inwardly, be critical of another who may not use Biblical terms quite as precisely.
Oh, good reminder Blondie. Thanks! So, is this the first they sort of separated the "other sheep" from the "great crowd"? "Other sheep" refers to the worthies living through Armageddon and it refers to the dead Jehovah's Witnesses as well. The "great crowd" only refers to those living through Armageddon.
So my Witness aunt who just died is designated a "other sheep applicant" but she is not a member of the "great crowd" because she died. She can't be a "other sheep" because those are not identified until the judging of the sheep and the goats at the start of the great tribulation. That was the big new light of 1995. At best she has an application on file to be judged "other sheep".
Your copy and paste of the article says "a "great crowd" with the hope of living right through. . . " but they do not supply a proof text that establishes the authenticity of the teaching that there is a pre-Armageddon identification of the "great crowd" by virtue of "hope". I'm only aware of the identification of the "great crowd" AFTER Armageddon. Am I mistaken?
The other issue that still remains even if the dead Jehovah's Witnesses are designated "other sheep applicants" . . . how are the dead "other sheep applicants" better off than the dead mankind aggregate in a sinner's grave who will be resurrected along with the dead Jehovah's Witnesses?
I can't see any benefit in being a Jehovah's Witness, being called "other sheep applicant" and being dead.
No one now can be a member of the "great crowd" because they are not identified until AFTER the great tribulation, and they can't be "other sheep" now because those are not judged until the start of the great tribulation. So . . . who are they? What am I missing?
And why are these no name group Jehovah's Witnesses preaching? I thought only the anointed had the command to preach. They're not other sheep, they're not great crowd, yet they're preaching, why?
:-)
Hi Brant, you wrote: Gary, hope you are well. You are still right on target. Every time I read one of your posts, I wish I had written it. I'm doing good. Fall is not my favorite time of the year and I hate winter. I'm too old to mess with the ice and the cold and snow. We have maybe two more months of decent weather, about like you.
I have a huge brush pile I need to burn from summer tree trimming. This is about my 4th big burn this summer. I'd miss this place and the quiet and privacy of the country but this big place is a lot of work for this old man.
This sheep and great crowd thing fascinates me. I think the Society messed up when they changed the core teachings of the sheep and the goats, and the generation thing. Why didn't they just deny they ever taught the generation prediction like they did with the 1975 blunder?
When 1975 failed, they just said, "We never taught that". When the 1914 generation failed, they decided to mess with core doctrine and try to make it all make sense.
With the 1975 issue, they made it a CLOSED subject and that worked. With the 1914 subject, they not only left it open, they studied about the failure on Sunday. As a business decision, that seemed stupid then, and it seems stupid now.
I think now they're trying to put the genie back in the bottle and he's not gonna go:-)
My sister left and thinks coming to sites like this is pathetic and stupid. I think she represents a certian view and percentage of people leaving. I say this, as I think for everyone one who leaves and makes it open is another 250 you never know about.
And why are these no name group Jehovah's Witnesses preaching?
Hi Gary!
Because they are the antitypical whatever. Sounds like any other religion and their double speak.
Good job Blondie and jgnat and I forget who else in breaking down the numbers.
Juni
Anitar:
Interesting what you said about some who get the meeting piped in over the phone and the new class of absentee witnesses.
These people are just learning what I knew long ago: it is more upbuilding to stay home.
LHG
