by Dansk 53 Replies latest jw friends

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    I would add that the notions of "equality" or "hierarchy" do not actually belong to evolution as a scientific theory. They are cultural constructs which we project on the theory in an effort to justify our ethical views. In whatever "knowledge" we may have -- right or wrong, scientific or religious -- we always seek, and find, the mirror reflection of our own face.


    And I think your last statement, is born out time and time again, especially by the religious. You have xenophobes deriving very prejudiced views and moderates finding tolerant views all in one and the same religious work. They see what they want to, and it shows who they are.

    So what drives this behaviour? If its chiefly the issue of resources, then we have to wait till we have an almost Utopian world for all this strife to end. I'm wondering if tribalism and if group identity vs "other" would still bring about divisions and tensions in a world of abundant resources?

  • peacefulpete

    The worst of human nature must be acknowlwdged and prepared for. Just as we wear seat belts because we know we cannot prevent all drivers from being irresponsible, society will forever have to anticipate the antisocials, the criminals, and the despotics. Tremendous advancements have been made in human understanding of and handling of these issues, however every once in a while we have to tolerate a less enlightened policy maker or public trend. Humans do learn from the past, however slowly.

  • Fleur

    Hello Ian dear :)

    You know, just a few days ago my ten year old brought up this subject after watching the news and seeing the fighting in Lebanon. She has already very wisely figured out that religion is the source of major problems in the world, and she has asked me many times why people can't just tolerate each other and get along (oh the innocence of childhood!)

    I told her that the problem with religion comes down to the fact that everyone who is a believer, believes that they only have the right one. Therefore, their beliefs are surely superior to everyone elses and are the only way that you should live your life. Religious bigotry leads to violence, and it has been going on for thousands of years all in the name of supposedly pleasing a 'loving' god figure, which ever name you choose to call him/her/it.

    My child is also convinced that greed is the true cause of suffering in the world (what a wise thing for one so young to realize!)

    Then she said "Well nobody can prove that god created people and nobody can prove evolution either. I mean, who was there to see it? Who heard the Big Bang? In the end somebody just has to shake their head and say "I don't know, it's crazy! it just happened that way cause I believe it did!"

    So we have come to the point in our household when the subject of mankinds mistreatment of each other and how we all got here, we say "I don't know, it's crazy."

    I told her that at the point I'm at in my life, I have decided that it really doesn't matter one bit HOW I got here. Or how my forefathers/mothers got here, or if I did evolve from being an ape or one celled whatever.

    I'm here now. What I do for others, to try to leave my mark in whatever small way by helping others if I can, that is all that matters. What you do with the life you've got is all that matters.


    You got that right, my friend.


  • Dansk

    Hi Essie,

    That's one lovely, intelligent daughter you've got there. All credit to you for allowing free-thinking!


  • Warlock


    You can change the belief in your question to anything you want, but you cannot change human nature.


  • TopHat

    All men created equal? Don't be silly! People who have invisible leprechauns on their side are obviously superior!

    OH! Shoot! Do the leprehauns HAVE TO BE invisible? Mine are visible.

  • frankiespeakin

    Recognizing evolution is important, but it doesn't teach one morals,( culture,the state, our own mind does.)

    I think a change in consiousness, or more awareness is the answer and not the belief in evolution. As an example our consiousness changes from the time we are born to the day we die.EX:

    When we are first born our consciousness is very narrow and extremely ego centric, as we get older it should broaden out to include more and more ,,if all goes well, we progress from extreme egocetricity, to include others of our family and friends of the family, and hopefully we become more aware of others even outside the family, if we mature in a good way we become more conscious of other ethnic groups and races, sometime the maturation process comes to a screaching hault if we become ethno-centric like the neo-nazi, or rednecks.

    Many have progressed in broadening thier awareness to include the whole human species and don't let national bounderies confine it(see thru nationalism and patriotism), some broaden out even more to include all the creatures of the earth, and some even become Gaia consciousness, or even cosmic consciousness.

    I feel that the impact we humans have made on the eccosystem will eventually cause climate changes that will put lots of stress on the human spiecies and cause a destablization of consciousness, and a reorganiztion of it that will make the surviviors evovle rapidly in consciousness to do things we never even dreamed of and work out good for all spiecies on this planet(become more ecco friendly).

    It is a process that happens in enlightenment first a destablization, and then a reorganization at a higher level of order than before.

  • frankiespeakin

    I also think of the term "the hundreth monkey" and the evolution of consciousness that will occur with the human species. It is proposed that when enough of our species evolve in consciousness(reach a critical mass) the entire species will automatically evovle to this highr form of consciousness. SOme have suggested a "species mind" that governes the direction of evolution of a species, I guess that could be the same as C.Jung "collective unconscious" or Sheldrake's "morphegenic fields" .

  • hamsterbait

    sspo -

    The Universe does appear to be very complex, yet recent discoveries in "genetic programming" and robotics have shown that very complex behaviors can emerge from extremely simple systems.

    program a room full of little robots to do maybe one or two things, and soon they can be moving almost as one in apparently complex patterns.

    Assume the universe is made up of just one utterly fundamental particle say I call it the "quintesson". Even if that particle can only interact in two ways with any other "quintesson" there is no reason why these interactions should not produce an apparently complex and incomprehensible (to their products) and even almost infinitely elaborated set of by products.

    The fact that we don't have the understanding yet in this very new field, is no reason to say that because we don't understand it , it cannot have arisen at all without outside influence.


  • PrimateDave

    Hi Ian,
    This is an interesting thread. In my first post I mentioned that the problems in Southwest Asia wouldn't go away if religion were somehow abolished (like that could ever happen!), and you asked if perhaps I referred to cultural problems. I won't deny the effects of religion and ignorance in exacerbating the situation in that part of the world. Religion is a part of culture. Perhaps organized religion merely reflects the dominant attitudes of the dominant culture. I have read that modern humans are with few exceptions a part of 'Empire Culture'.
    Last year I read The Final Empire by William Kotke (Free download from The author made a good point in my opinion that all highly organized human societies over the past five thousand or so years have grown by extorting life from the soil until they consume all natural resources in their area and collapse. Empires have risen and fallen, leaving ruined landscapes behind. If the collapse was great enough, leaving few humans behind, then the ecosystem of the land of the former empire eventually recovered. In other parts of the world, however, the deserts remain.
    In many parts of the world tribal groups did learn to live and promote life within their home ecosystems. Yes, they altered their landscapes as all living beings interact with their environments. But, the main difference between these tribal groups and Empire culture is that the tribals promoted variety of life and harmony with living systems whereas the Empires focused on large scale agriculture and deforestation. One of the most pervasive and inaccurate perceptions of nature is that it is all about 'survival of the fittest'. It is true that natural selection as a blind process tends to weed out unfit individuals. My point is that ecologists have seen that nature is also about finding niches and cooperation with other living beings. There is some competition, but there is also balance and diversity.
    Reading that book sparked my interest in Permaculture, which is perhaps one practical application of ecological science for modern humans. Permaculturalists seek to return to a sustainable, life promoting living arrangement with our fellow inhabitants of this finite world. The need for change is great. Just take a glance at to see how our current socio-economic system is leading the planet to the next great die off of species. I am a pessimistic because it seems that the current human power elite are gunning for a 'burn everything' economic model which will absolutely ruin the environment and cause untold human suffering.
    So, evolution is the answer. Just like bacteria in a petri dish, we humans will pollute our home with our waste product until we die off. Eventually, some other species may rise up the ranks to global dominance, sentient or not. Homo Sapiens may be the end of the hominid branch of bipedal primates. We have the answers to our problems, but we are as a species locked on course. One can't change the world, but can you change yourself?

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