For those not sick to death of talking about this...607 BCE

by Swamboozled 601 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  thirdwitness

  I will try to address many of the things you have written. First off, those trying to prove Tyre existed in the first century. I know that. We all know that. No one has ever doubted that or said otherwise. I have never said that Alex destroyed Tyre and that it was never rebuilt after that. The prophecy said that many nations would come against Tyre and finally it would not be rebuilt. And as the ruins demonstrate still sitting there over in Tyre. It has not been rebuilt at that site. Yes a city has been built around the site and named Sur but that does not negate Jehovah's prophecy.

  As for Alexander. First he came to the mainland city before he got to the Island city. I am really surprised that Leo does not know this. To get to the Island he had to throw debris from the ruined city and yes trees as you point out. That is when Ezek 26:12 was fulfilled.

  As for the 'he' 'they' pronouns you are still inconsistent. Now lets go thru this one more time for those that are hard of hearing:

  Ezek 26: 3 therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Here I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring up against you many nations, just as the sea brings up its waves. 4 And they will certainly bring the walls of Tyre to ruin and tear down her towers, and I will scrape her dust away from her and make her a shining, bare surface of a crag. 5 A drying yard for dragnets is what she will become in the midst of the sea.’

  “‘For I myself have spoken,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘and she must become an object of plunder for the nations. 6 And her dependent towns that are in the field—by the sword they will be killed, and people will have to know that I am Jehovah.’

  Lets stop for a moment. Notice that it is not just Babylon that Jehovah is bringing against Tyre. No indeed it is 'many nations'. Ezekiel's words, not mine. Then next Ezekiel prophecies about the first nation that will plunder Tyre.

  7 “For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Here I am bringing against Tyre Neb·u·chad·rez´zar the king of Babylon from the north, a king of kings, with horses and war chariots and cavalrymen and a congregation, even a multitudinous people. 8 Your dependent towns in the field he will kill even with the sword, and he must make against you a siege wall and throw up against you a siege rampart and raise up against you a large shield; 9 and the strike of his attack engine he will direct against your walls, and your towers he will pull down, with his swords. 10 Owing to the heaving mass of his horses their dust will cover you. Owing to the sound of cavalryman and wheel and war chariot your walls will rock, when he comes in through your gates, as in the cases of entering into a city opened by breaches. 11 With the hoofs of his horses he will trample down all your streets. Your people he will kill even with the sword, and to the earth your own pillars of strength will go down.

  End of the specific prophecy about Neb and what he would do to Tyre. How do we know this is the end of this specific part of the prophecy about Tyre? Because notice the pronoun now changes from he (as in Neb) to they (as in many nations).

  New Part for Leo: Now let me at this juncture add something for Leo. Notice verse 7 says: with horses and war chariots and cavalrymen and a congregation, even a multitudinous people. You would surely agree that this is 'they'. That is what you pointed out. And yet Ezekiel continues for several more verses saying 'he'. Who is the 'he'. Why, it is Neb of course. Why didn't Ezekiel say 'they'. He has already mentioned the horses and chariots and cavalrymen and multitudinous people. But Ezekiel continues to say 'he'. That is until verse 12 when he begans to talk about what the 'many nations' will continue to do. Amazingly this harmonizes with Isaiah and Zechariah

  12 And they will certainly spoil your resources and plunder your sales goods, and tear down your walls, and your desirable houses they will pull down. And your stones and your woodwork and your dust they will place in the very midst of the water.’

  13 “‘And I will cause the turmoil of your singing to cease, and the very sound of your harps will be heard no more. 14 And I will make you a shining, bare surface of a crag. A drying yard for dragnets is what you will become. Never will you be rebuilt; for I myself, Jehovah, have spoken,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.

  Then the rest of the verses continue to show what will happen to Tyre. So you see your whole theory that Ezekiel was wrong when he said Neb would destroy Tyre to the point of never being rebuilt is unscriptural not only according to Isaiah and Zechariah but even in the very prophecy of Ezekiel that you try to support it with. Ezekiel never said Neb would devastate Tyre to the point of never being rebuilt. Nor did he say that Alex would devestate it to the point of never being rebuilt. It was the 'many nations' over time that would carry this out finally fulfilling this entire prophecy.
• 

  thirdwitness

  And Tor your points are for another thread. This one is about 607. Not dates the WT may have been wrong on. That is a whole different subject. You merely try to sidetrack the real issue because you cannot show how the 40 year desolation of Egypt does not disprove 587. The 40 year desolation definitely does disprove 587 without a doubt as do many other scriptures.
• 

  scholar

  stevenyc

  1703

  Sorry mate but the party is still on. The ancient Phoenecian city of Tyre no longer exists, it has not been rebuilt. All that has happened that over time other cities have been built on or near the site and such cities have been identified as Tyre or as Sur for the moderns. That ancient city was an island and its remains submerged under the water. Perhaps you shiould read current archaeological reports about that ancient city.

  scholar JW
• 

  thirdwitness

  Lets make this simple with some yes or no questions.

  Was Egypt desolated for 40 years without inhabitant during Neb's rule like the Bible prophecied it would be?

  Yes or No.

  Who will dare answer?
• 

  Leolaia

  pseudo-scholar....There is no mystery about where Tyre was located. It was on a small island some 600 yards offshore and 25 miles south of Sidon which began connected with the mainland through the causeway that Alexander the Great built, which has since silted over to form the present-day penninsula. Strabo and Pliny gave detailed descriptions of its location and character. This location today bears its ancient name of Tyre. The king of Tyre was himself described (in admittedly mythological language) as "in the midst of the seas" in Ezekiel 28:1, an allusion to the insular location of the city.
• 

  scholar

  Alan F and Jeffro

  I have just now looked at your crazy nonsense trying to prove 538 BCE for the Return. Your methodology is plain dumb and simply wrong. My analysis proves quite of subject that the Jews returned home by Tishri of 537 in the first year of Cyrus. The second year of Cyrus saw the laying of the Temple foundation in the second month of 536 in harmony with Josephus.

  The year 538 is simply impossible as the Jews returned home by the seventh month, Tishri of 537 and not 538 because Tishri in the first year of Cyrus from Nisan 538-Nisan 537 proves that the seventh month Tishri falls not in 538 but 537BCE. Apostates in their desperation to undermine the integrity of 607 need to resort to desperate means which is plainly shown by your clumsy use of calendation.

  My tabulation employs six lines of data based upon the accepted fact that the 1st year of Cyrus ran from Nisan of 538 until Nisan 537 BCE therefore such a framework proves conclusively that the seventh month falls not in 538 but in 537 BCE.

  scholar JW
• 

  thirdwitness

  Lets make this simple with some yes or no questions.

  Was Egypt desolated for 40 years without inhabitant during Neb's rule like the Bible prophecied it would be?

  Yes or No.

  Who will dare answer?
• 

  Leolaia

  That ancient city was an island and its remains submerged under the water. Perhaps you shiould read current archaeological reports about that ancient city.

  Are you kidding me? It's actually the other way around. From one recent article on archaeological work in Tyre:

  The silting up of its ancient northern harbour “means that the heart of the Bronze Age, Phoenician, Greek, Roman and Byzantine ports could be excavated on land, in much the same way as a classic terrestrial dig,” say Nick Marriner, a British archeologist. [1]

  If you actually read "current archaeological reports" on the ancient city, you would know about Marriner's recent geological and archaeological work which has reconstructed the original location and shape of the island before it was modified by Alexander the Great and erosion and silting have also altered it. His recent article from January 2006 (published in Geology) gives the relevant data from the earliest Tyre harbor from the Bronze Age (c. 3000 BC) on through Byzantine times. Some graphics from his article:

  

  

  So I guess when you were referring to "current archaeological reports," I should regard that as just your usual bluffing....
• 

  Leolaia

  I will try to address many of the things you have written. First off, those trying to prove Tyre existed in the first century. I know that. We all know that. No one has ever doubted that or said otherwise. I have never said that Alex destroyed Tyre and that it was never rebuilt after that. The prophecy said that many nations would come against Tyre and finally it would not be rebuilt. And as the ruins demonstrate still sitting there over in Tyre. It has not been rebuilt at that site. Yes a city has been built around the site and named Sur but that does not negate Jehovah's prophecy.

  The prophecy said that the city would be wiped clean, entirely disposed into the sea, leaving Tyre bare as a rock (evoking the meaning of Tyre's name). That location was indeed rebuilt after Alexander the Great and is presently occupied to this day. The name of that location has never changed. Archaeologists digging in Tyre's harbor have found continued use from the time of Ezekiel through Roman times and beyond. How in the world can you say that "a city has been built around the site" which has the same ancient name and not acknowledge that Tyre was rebuilt? And why do you use the word "around"? You make it sound as if the site of Tyre was itself left bare but the present-day Tyre was only built around it. That's just not true. Most of the extent of the ancient island has been built over and occupied as this photo from 1917 indicates:

  

  And this photo overlaying the ancient location of Tyre's Phoenician harbor shows that not only was the island urbanized in front of the harbor but even the harbor itself is today the site of buildings:

  

  As for Alexander. First he came to the mainland city before he got to the Island city. I am really surprised that Leo does not know this. To get to the Island he had to throw debris from the ruined city and yes trees as you point out. That is when Ezek 26:12 was fulfilled.

  Don't be surprised, because there was no "mainland city" of Tyre. What Strabo called Palaetyros (lying about 30 stadia from Tyre) was known in the Iron Age as Ushu in Assyrian texts, 'Osah in Egyptian texts, and Hosah in the OT, and was the mainland suburb of the island city and had water resevoirs which was the source of Tyre's fresh water. It was not called Tyre and was distinguished from its neighboring "fortress of Tyre" in Joshua 19:29. Not even Strabo called this locale "Tyre". And Ezekiel himself referred to the king of Tyre as "surrounded by the seas" (Ezekiel 28:1-2).

  Hence my incredulous reaction when you claimed that the description of insular Tyre being completely destroyed with its rubble thrown into the sea was fulfilled by Alexander building the causeway.
• 

  Jeffro

  thirdwitness:

  Funny thing isn't it. I show you how you are absolutely and totally wrong about what Ezekiel said about Tyre and what are your replies. All you can do is ignore my argument and declare me an apostate trying to outdo Robert King, and ignoring all your arguments when I have clearly and solidly debunk your outlandish and unreasonable and unbiblical arguments.

  What a joke. AlanF showed you aerial photography from Google Earth which shows the city of Tyre, both the mainland, and what used to be the island, which has been built up around the causeway built by Alexander the Great. It's the exact same location as the old city. There is a small area that is still in ruins that formed only a part of the city, and it is left in that state because of its interest as a historical location.

  Your wilful ignorance is as bad, if not worse, than that of 'scholar'. Obviously the city is indeed there, and it still even bears a named based on the original-language name of Tyre. Clearly, either the bible, or your interpretation of it, is wrong. If you would rather say that the bible is wrong, than that you are, that is up to you.