I Thought David Reed made a good point in one of his talks in which he said that "being a Christian is about being in a relationship not a religion" seek2find
Intro and ? that has probably been asked a zillion times...
by Swamboozled 27 Replies latest jw friends
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Van Gogh
Swamboozled,
I for one hope you, as a newby, will stick around on JWD...
Gary:
Things I've learned.
Arguing with a Jehovah's Witness is like being in a pissing contest with a skunk.
Never talk religion or Bible with a Jehovah's Witness.
Never Question a Witness.
Witnesses act as if they believe God lives in Brooklyn.
Witnesses only have two rules:
Rule#1. Always treat the Governing Body as if they're never wrong.
Rule#2. If the Governing Body is ever wrong, see rule #1.
Love ya Gary, as astute as ever...
VG -
jwfacts
Welcome, it is great to hear you had to courage to make the break. There is not point responding to such questions, a JW will not hear the answers, but they may report you to the elders.
Here are some things to think about in regards to what she said.
In regards to organisation read http://jwfacts.com/index_files/organization.htm
The word organization never appears in the bible. For most of history the outstanding worshippers such as Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Job did not belong to any group, and even when there was the Israelite Organization God used individual to chastise the organization, eventually splitting it into 2 organizations, the northern and southern kingdoms.
In Christian times salvation was said to come from Jesus, not an organization. The question is Who not Where do you go to.
John 6:68 Peter said to Jesus “Lord, whom shall we go away to?” This is the essence of Christianity; it is not about an organization but about being a follower of Jesus. Likewise, Galatians 3:29 says “if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.”
John 8:32, 36 states "You will know the truth and the truth will set you free. … the Son sets YOU free " Freedom comes from belonging to Jesus, otherwise a person is no freer than the Israelites that were enslaved to the legislation of the Pharisees. Salvation is only through Jesus;
John 10:9
“I am the door; whoever enters through me will be saved, and he will go in and out and find pasturage.”
Acts 4:12
“Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”
Acts 16:31
““Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will get saved, you and your household””
2 Timothy 2:10
“that they too may obtain the salvation that is in union with Christ Jesus along with everlasting glory.”
The reason Congregations are formed is for Christians to discuss Jesus. Salvation does not arise from handing conscience and thinking ability over to an organization or Church of men as leaders. Any organization claiming it is necessary to go through them for salvation usurps the role of Christ .
It is interesting to see that when starting the religion Russell condemned to current emphasis on one true religion.
Zion’s Watch Tower 1883 March p.6
“We always refuse to be called by any other name than that of our Head --Christians--continually claiming that their can be no division among those continually led by his Spirit and example as made known through his Word.”
Together easrly bible students would meet to discuss the bible. Love was to be the identifying factor rather than intricate doctrinal unity. Russell recognized that forced doctrinal unity was the source of apostasy and bondage.
Zion’s Watch Tower 1893 September p.264
“The endeavor to compel all men to think alike on all subjects, culminated in the great apostasy … The union of the early church, based upon the simple gospel and bound only by love, gave place to the bondage of the Church of Rome a slavery of God's children, from the degradation of which multitudes are still weak and suffering .”
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jwfacts
The other point your mother raised is that we all make mistakes. Any religion can use that as an excuse, so how do you identify a true religion if every time an error is highlighted they say, but we are imperfect, we make mistakes.
There are some things to think about at http://jwfacts.com/index_files/light.htm
The premise of it being acceptable to make mistakes contradicts the concept that there is one single organization of God with absolute truth. It is not about individuals making mistakes, it is about the Organization making mistakes. The Witnesses claim God had the power to make the bible is 100% accurate through guiding his organization in the past. Why then does the organization not have a similar level of accuracy in their statements if God is directing them now?
Indoctrinated people are not going to listen to logic, and speaking to your family-in-law about this is going to be like hitting your head against a brick wall. But at least you can say that the ongoing changes and errors of the Watchtower Society disturb you and you want your children to grow up normal and well adjusted. You want them to know you will always show them love and for them to not have to live in constant fear when the family may be forced to shun them.
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jgnat
She challenged us to find the "true religion". We said we don't think there is one. She says the bible talks of one. I'm sure many of you were confronted with this arguement. How did you respond.Yeah, where?
There are a people called by His name, but a bona-fide charter-holding organization? Point to ONE in the bible.
Who was Jehovah's True religion when Jesus walked on earth? The Pharisees? Then....Jesus would be the apostate, wouldn't he?
The early church did not even have a name for themselves or any NT literature when they founded. They spread by word-of-mouth and migration. Who was the True religion then?
The first attempt at organizaton was the council of Nicea, a couple hundred years later. The bishops drafted an early version of an orthodox Christian creed, which was later amended to uphold the Trinity doctrine. Who was the True religion then? The Arians?
Just before 1847 and the appearance of C. T. Russell, there was a general religious revival, evangelism, and missionary work sweeping the globe. Who were the True Christians who spread the True Religion to Russell? The Seventh Day Adventists? Who before them?
Here's one I've never received a straight answer from a JW: Were the great Christian reformers predecessors of the True Religion, like Spurgeon, the Wesleys? How did they inherit the True Religion? How was it passed on?
The myth of a mystical thread of "Truth" passing through the generations does not weather under scrutiny. My pastor used to say, "Sitting in a garage doesn't make you a car." Going to church doesn't make you a Christian. It is by your fruits that you are known, not the membership card you carry. Oh, and, welcome. Don't sweat the mistakes of the past. We all make them.
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atypical
Whenever I get into an argument with my witness parents, I ask them who was the organization in place when Jesus arrived on the scene. Then I ask them who was Jesus the angriest with - sinners? - or the so-called organization which was abusing and burdening the people with endless rules and regulations. They still haven't come up with a good answer for me.
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jwfacts
Great question Atypical.
A similar question is "who was the organization and Slave class that Russell received his teachings from".
http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/slave.htm looks at some of the groups of the last 2000 years that are closest to the JWs and there has never been found a single one that has all the necessary beliefs to be considered teaching basis Watchtower truth.
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Stealth453
Welcome Swamboozled. Glad you'r here.
She says the bible talks of one.
What she was really saying was... "the watchtower says there is only one religion and they are it".
Don't believe anything that comes from the watchliar sociopath society.
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Honesty
Welcome to JWD where you will discover the truth about "da Troof."
Hmmmm.....
Mark 9:38-41 John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him because he wasn’t following us.” “Don’t stop him,” said Jesus, “because there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name who can soon afterwards speak evil of Me. For whoever is not against us is for us. And whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of My name, since you belong to the Messiah — I assure you : He will never lose his reward.
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serendipity
Welcome swamboozled!