Intro and ? that has probably been asked a zillion times...

by Swamboozled 27 Replies latest jw friends

  • IP_SEC

    Im not a christian since leaving the dubs but I always hear christians saying: "Christ did away with religion in favor of relationship" That is to say that religion is unnecessary since there is a direct relationship with christ now. The dubs are stuck on Old Testament religion.

    Infact I would not call them christian after all. Rather Pharisaic Jews because of their micromanaging rules and outward muckity muck with some hint of christ belief.

    Welcome by the way

  • GoingGoingGone

    Just wanted to say HI and Welcome!

    Hope you stick around!


  • TheListener

    Hi and welcome swamboozled.

    Atypical, I love your question. I'm going to use that in the future. Please don't be offended if I forget to mention that it came from an avid apostate :)

    Honesty, that is good too. However, the MIL can counter with the canned WT response:


    w51 12/1 p. 734 Questions From Readers ***

    Not all believers in Jesus followed him along with the twelve apostles. Some who wanted to follow Jesus were told to go back home and bear witness to him there. (Mark 5:18-20) Hence it was not necessary for this man to bodily follow Jesus to be on his side. There were only two sides in this controversy, either for or against Jesus, and since he was not against him he was for Jesus. From Pentecost and the outpouring of the spirit on the faithful it would be necessary for this man to associate himself with the congregation of Christians in order to receive the spirit and be approved of God for not being against Jesus. It is different with the religious systems that now preach in Jesus’ name. It cannot be said that all these are not against him for that reason, for they are against Jehovah’s faithful witnesses who do preach Jesus and his kingdom. So as they are against the least of these his brothers, they are against him and their mere use of Jesus’ name does not gain favorable recognition of them as true followers.

    Perhaps someone has a good rebuttal for the WT argument. I notice they make the statement "that from Pentecost and the ourpouring of the spirit on the faithful it would be necessary for this man to associate himself with the congregation of Christians in order to receive the spirit and be approved by God" - I don't actually see any warrant for this statement In the complete QFR article they use Matthew 7: 20-23 "

    "Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men. Not everyone saying to me, ‘Master, Master,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day: ‘Master, Master, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you at all. Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness." - I don't believe that is evidence that can be used to warrant the statement that the WTS makes in the article. I thought Matthew was talking about individuals who had works but had not shown faith and weren't concerned with the sheep just their outward appearance - like the pharisees of Jesus' day. Just mho.

  • SPAZnik

    You ARE an ass.

  • jgnat

    Nice to see you around, GGG and TheListener. Nice to see you taking care of the exiting JW's. Isn't it great when couples can leave together? *sigh*

    I agree, atypical's response is priceless.

  • moomanchu
    My mother in law defended all of our points (most from COC) by saying that we are all imperfect and the Society makes mistakes.

    But, do you have to follow their rules perfectly?

    What are the consequences to the society when it makes mistakes?

    When did you ever hear an apology for their mistakes?

    I say help the worldly people make it into the new system by not preaching to them,

    this way they didn't know about the WBTS and didn't have the chance to choose.

    Look at all the lives you can save by not going out in field service!!!!!!!! WELCOME TO THE FORUM

  • Dismembered

    Greetings & Welcome Swamboozled,

    :My mother in law defended all of our points (most from COC) by saying that we are all imperfect and the Society makes mistakes.

    That statement, (and/or ones like it) is one of many cop out "answers" dubs use to get around any substantive challenge to their religious quackery. If someone is willing to make those kind of rudimentary remarks, and stick to them, there's little or no hope for them.

    :Arguing with a Jehovah's Witness is like being in a pissing contest with a skunk.

    Thanks Garybuss rest assured I'll be using that one. (Almost fell off my chair again, I had to tell my wife why I was laughing so hard. My answer was Garybuss is at it again) Dismembered

  • LovesDubs

    Are you old enough to remember the old game show "To Tell The Truth"? If my recollection serves me still at 51 years old, the object was for three contestants to convince the 3 or 4 permanent panelists that THEY were the person described in the introduction (in this case Joseph Schmo, the founder of a new group called the Bible Students) by answering a series of questions about Joe and what he does for a living. In the process the contestants were to be as convincing as they could. At the end of the questioning the panelists were to hold up a number, 1 2 or 3 and say why they thought that that contestant WAS in fact Joseph Schmo. Then after all the votes were in...the REAL Joe Schmo was asked to stand. More times than not the panelists were DUPED into thinking someone ELSE was Joe Schmo because the contestants were SO convincing of their "truth". Do you see my point?

    Truth by it's very nature is only what you can convince OTHERS to believe. Ask the Methodists, the Budhists, the Seventh Day Adventists if THEY have the truth. They would all with a resounding thunderous reply say "WE DO!"

    The Bible if I recall says there is ONE FAITH, ONE GOD, ONE two individuals will believe in those things identically. Your truth is YOUR truth. Your faith is YOUR faith, and all you need do is look at the people Jesus surrounded himself with during his ministry to see the DIVERSITY of beliefs there and he in NO WAY ventured to make them all little robots identical in thought and deed to himself or to each other. They were unified in their faith...and that is where the similarities ended. I mean look at Peter...he DENIED CHRIST three times for Gods sake and then Jesus handed him the KEYS to the damn Kingdom and the company station wagon. John was probably the first gay guy in my opinion, hanging on every word Jesus said, and people like Luke and Paul never even MET the guy...but their faith in him and what he stood for and who he represented...therein was the ONENESS.

    No corporations, no allegiances to serve a Society, no disfellowshipping for being....what did mom say??...oh yeah IMPERFECT.

    Welcome Fellow Ass, you do better next time :)


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