NATO INVOKES ARTICLE V - Serious

by Amazing 68 Replies latest jw friends

  • jelly
    jelly

    Kent it’s late here so I will be brief.

    It was only four planes not eight. The fourth plane that crashed in the middle of a field was not shot down. The passengers were using cell phones to call family members off the plane. This led to the passengers learning about the other two planes striking the WTC. When the passengers learned of this they struggled with the hijackers for control and it appears the plane crashed.

    The military would have shot down any planes that were out of communication and flying towards NY or DC, that’s why the sky was full of fighter jets. There is no cover up here because the military was up front with its actions and most people realize that shooting down the jets is better than letting them crash into buildings. In this case they did not have to.

    Bin Ladden was trained by the CIA to fight the Russians. It was the Gulf war that turned him against the US.

    Will the Americans target civilians? Highly unlikely. What may happen and I believe should happen is that the bombing campaign will be one with many of the traditional rules of engagement lifted. The USAF wouldn’t bomb a housing area because it accomplishes nothing. I could see them however blowing up power plants that happen to be in residential neighborhoods leading to civilian deaths. I think America should use everything but NBC (Nuclear Biological and Chemical) in this one.

    It was American bombs that helped eventually solve the Serbian crises.

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    I did write the following earlier on:

    I can't see all countries in NATO giving complete support to retaliation, especially the "not only the terrorists responsible, but hold those nations that host them as equally responsible" part.

    I just wanted to clarify that although the countries in NATO have to give support to any attacked, I think for most it will just be a silent nod and a HOPE that the US does whatever it will do as RESPONSIBLY as possible.

    Many of the individual citizens of NATO countries will not have the same tolerance for actions that will cost significant civilian lives. Much of the free world has a different view of justice, than the eye for an eye style that America still clings to with the death penalty in many states.

    Since most countries don't have the capabilities of the US military, such action is not really considered, and what action is within one's countries means is not hastily carried out without serious thought as to the consequences escalating.

    Unfortunately, I don't think the American public will have the same moral conscience and outrage as they have had in the past when American military errors have cost civilian lives. This time, civilian tragedies due to American attacks will be more easily brushed off. There appears to almost be a "well they did it to us first" mentality with regard to killing civilians.

    I think the hate and anger that is surfacing in Americans is disturbing. Too many are focussing it on entire countries, entire religious communities and not on the INDIVIDUALS responsible for this crime.

    An environment of hate and revenge and anger will produce something very wrong. I'm sure it is a bad time to be an immigrant in America.

    Path

  • Kent
    Kent

    Hi jelly

    The military would have shot down any planes that were out of communication and flying towards NY or DC, that’s why the sky was full of fighter jets. There is no cover up here because the military was up front with its actions and most people realize that shooting down the jets is better than letting them crash into buildings. In this case they did not have to.


    I would agree to shoting down any planes the way you discribe, and for the reasons you mention - and I believe most people on earth would agree to that.

    As for any cover-up, I can't say - and I guess nobody really can at the moment. It wouldn't be popular, and it's enough trouble already. BUT - what I said was that CNN repported NEW PLANES coming in, then silence. BBC reported 4 planes ACTUALLY SHOT SOWN - then silence.

    I just wonder why, and nobody must forget policies are involved here.

    When this is said, I can admit I rarely cry - but I've cried for the victims of this crime.

    Pathofthorns said:

    Unfortunately, I don't think the American public will have the same moral conscience and outrage as they have had in the past when American military errors have cost civilian lives. This time, civilian tragedies due to American attacks will be more easily brushed off. There appears to almost be a "well they did it to us first" mentality with regard to killing civilians.

    I'm afraid that's true, and the concerns you mention are valid ones. I just saw a US Senator stating "this is no time for bringing anyone to justice - it's a time to wage war!" - and if there are enough idiots like him around, this situation might get dangerous.
    I think the hate and anger that is surfacing in Americans is disturbing. Too many are focussing it on entire countries, entire religious communities and not on the INDIVIDUALS responsible for this crime.

    Exactly. The idea must be to bring the guilty to justice. If 30.000 people are killed somewhere else, nobody will come back to life in the US.

    But, I do believe the US actually WILL be responsible, there is shreds of evidence they try! When the Israelis started up attacks on the West-Bank, smashing tanks into Jericho, the US has told them to stop those actions!

    The US leaders have to understand 5 bilion US dollars spent for the Israeli military, used to kill Palestines every day, isn't making them loved in the area. When the Prime Minister Ariel Sharon now OFFICIALLY are linking PLO and Bin Laden, that's something he KNOWS isn't true - and it's done to promote their own rights to be terrorists.

    Will the Americans target civilians? Highly unlikely. What may happen and I believe should happen is that the bombing campaign will be one with many of the traditional rules of engagement lifted. The USAF wouldn’t bomb a housing area because it accomplishes nothing.

    Well, there is a history of what the US can do in such respects, and the history is grim. They targeted sivilians in Vietnam, sivilians were killed in Bosnia and Serbia, and sivilians were killed in Iraq. Some "mistakes" were made, and bomb-shelters were blown to Kongdom-Come.

    Bombing a country because individuals commit crimes, is a worse crime than the first one! The US will have to bomb Florida if they are to follow that route of thinking. Western experst state these terrorists couldn't have done this without extensive help from people inside the US itself! The people responsible were trained in the US - it's not that simple.

    The Americans have to stop being si naive they believe they can bomb themselves out of problems. A suicide attacker isn't afraid of dying - and if the US and it's allies doesn't handle this case with care and brains, who can stop 50 more planes from falling out of the sky?

    What can stop anyone from crashing a 747 into Buckingham Palace? Into the Vatican, into Sky-Scrapers all over the world? NOTHING can prevent that - except make people stop wanting to do it - and remove their support in the sense that someone will be notified in advance!

    The "Star-Wars" protection, that will be given a "go-ahead" now, couldn't have stopped this! NOTHING can stop anything like this happening over and over - of someone is determined to do it!

    So, I believe the "let's bomb the assholes flat" isn't the way to go at all. Not if the general idea is to keep Empire State Building from going down in flames next month!

    Yakki Da

    Kent

    I need more BOE letters, KMs and other material. Those who can send it to me - please do! The new section will be interesting!!

    Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
    http://watchtower.observer.org

  • GinnyTosken
    GinnyTosken

    Jelly,

    Your simplification is very self-serving. The government of Afghanistan uses its resources to back terrorist groups; this action makes them accomplices. This is much different than a group of people, NOT AFFELIATED WITH THE GOVERNMENT, providing support.


    My intent was to make the people in Afghanistan more human to us.

    Suppose that the governor of Florida and his colleagues went crazy and became ultra-fundamentalists. (Maybe it would be more appropriate to use as an example Mississippi, one of our poorest states. According to the U.S. Department of State, the per capita income in Afghanistan is $280 per year.) Anyone who disagrees with this fanatical government is executed. People who try to flee Florida on boats are sometimes turned away by neighboring states.

    Meanwhile, this new fanatical government aids and abets terrorists.

    If the citizens of Florida were in a situation similar to the one in Afghanistan, would we be so quick to want to bomb a whole state to teach the accomplices a lesson?

    Should we use the same methods as the Taliban?

    "The Taliban used swift summary trials and implemented strict punishments according to Islamic law . . ."

    ". . . the Taliban used a scorched earth policy during its summer offensive . . ."

    "Taliban forces were responsible for the indiscriminate bombardment of civilian areas."

    "The continuing internal conflict resulted in many instances of the use of excessive force."

    "The Taliban claimed that opponents conducted attacks from the homes of civilians in the Shomali area, making them legitimate military targets."

    from http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/1999_hrp_report/afghanis.html

    Also, let us not forget:

    In the absence of a decisive Japanese reaction to the Allied demand for an immediate and unconditional surrender, the second, plutonium-type bomb was dropped on August 9, not on its primary target, which the pilot could not find, but on its alternative one which, by a cruel irony, was the Christian city of Nagasaki, the nearest thing to a center of resistance to Japanese militarism. Over 74,800 people were killed by it that day.

    from A History of the American People by Paul Johnson

    "A government should not mobilize an army out of anger, military leaders should not provoke war out of wrath. Act when it is beneficial, desist if it is not. Anger can revert to joy, wrath can revert to delight, but a nation destroyed cannot be restored to existence, and the dead cannot be restored to life. Therefore an enlightened government is careful about this, a good military leadership is alert to this. This is the way to secure a nation and keep the armed forces whole."

    from Art of War by Sun Tzu

    Ginny

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    World War III, Maybe?

    What happened in NYC and DC should remind mainstream americans that life outside the United States is very different for the rest of humanity. We live without active regard for the social, economic and political situations most humans are forced to suffer every day. While the media expends efforts to report news about the world around us, most americans remain physically and emotionally detached from the countries and people with the funny sounding names and places.

    We are a media driven, spoon-fed, consumption oriented, narcissistic, materialistic, entertainment-minded and pleasure centric society. I AM NOT CONDEMNING any of these characteristics of our american lifestyles and behavior. It is just the color of our national culture.

    You want proof? Yesterday, in Providence, RI a man was removed from an Amtrak train and arrested. Authorities deemed him suspicious because of his turban and long beard. Therefore, he was arrested and detained. I saw that man several weeks ago at the same train station waiting on the platform. I immediately mumbled to myself, "wow, a SIKH in Providence--not a common sight".

    Your average mainstream media minded american has NO IDEA what a sikh is or where they come from. Most americans do not know the difference
    between Shiite and Sunni's either, let alone the countries in which they reside. However, I'll bet those same americans know what happened on "Ally McBeal or Friends or Big Brother" right? I'll bet they know the lyrics to the top ten hits from J-Lo, Maraiah, Destiny's Child, N'SYNC, right?

    These are the reasons the american mind is not ready to handle international matters. The generation X and i crowd can barely find their own state on a map. While everyone is gadget conscious and electronically savvy, their foreign counterparts are able to grown their own food, handle weapons and animals and travel without assistance or machinery. No matter how angry our youth may seem today, they are not trained, nor even ready to be trained to confront what may become WWIII.

    I am sorry for the current and incoming generations of americans. Perhaps, globalization may sharpen our senses and wake this nation, if not, occupation by foreign enemies will for a certainty. We have yet to realize the ramifications of these attacks. This is a complex situation.

    How should NATO and the US respond? Will genocide of all arabs be enough? Should arab nations be forced under threat to hand over all terrorists, extremeists, leaders, agitators, rebels, guerillas? Should we attack one arab nation after another and occupy their countries and exploit their resources? Should we allow innocent women and children to suffer because of the fanaticism of cowardly religious leaders who prey on the malleable minds youth?

    The answer depends on what all powerful nations agree as their ultimate global objective. If economic globalization and equalization are the goals, the approach taken will differ greatly from a goal of peace and security and freedom from terrorism. Whatever goals are set by the nations involved, americans are NOT ready by any means. Americans are creatures of comfort and habit, immune to inconvenience and allergic to sacrifice, unless profitable.

    History is full of mistakes that started with noble intentions. Saddam Hussein is still in power, while his people suffer. Because we are not ready, yet. We allowed the British to divide Palestine after the war, and look at it now! We allowed eastern europe to be divided after both world wars, and it is still not right. We have always prescribed "democracy" as an antidote for war, without ever getting our hands dirty and really diagnosing foreign affairs. We are probably going to same all over again, only with greater intensity. Instead of launching missiles into Afghanistan, maybe we will "nuke" them for effect. Maybe we will invade, and
    then leave, like Iraq ten years ago. I know one thing for sure, we do not understand the arab because we do not care!

    The saddest tragedy is the millions of innocent arab women and children who are about to die, believing it is Allah's will, when the sleeping giants from the west arrive with their electronic war machines and caravans of death, while their supposed spiritual leaders like Saddam Hussein, Moammar Quaddafi, Usama bin Mohammed bin Laden hide safely in their mountains, in their palaces and secret places, leaving their loyally blinded followers out in the open to
    face "democracy" when it comes!

    Perhaps we can find solstace in believing the arabs are the new king of the south and the NATO-US alliance is the king of the north, and after the dust is settled, and the arabs are occupied and subjugated, we will hear the cry for peace in the middle-east, once and for all. Who knows?

    One thought certainly demands consideration, this talk of a long-term struggle definitely has connotations of a three, four or five year conflict. Are we ready for the reports about atrocities committed by our troops, or NATO alliance troops in other countries?

    Are we ready for the media emprires to betray us once the conflict begins? While the media screams revenge with the country now, they will soon be reporting dissention, controversy and opposition to our military tactics, once they are underway.

    How will the media report US troops carrying out assasinations? How will they report desolated arab villages and burning women and children? Remember how the media affected the Vietnam conflict? Liberals protesting in the streets with students and riots everywhere, while troops were trying to obey orders and perform their duties.

    Americans do not understand what they want, nor what they are asking for in this situation.

    This nation needs more time to prepare and prepare it's allies. This time, we won't be facing neatly arranged bunkers and walls in Normandy. There won't be any pillboxes or trenches, or uniformed soldiers attacking in groups. If fanaticism runs as deep as it appears, these arabs may fight with women and children like the Viet Cong, only with more intensity.

    Americans were able to show some vietnamese that the north and the cong were cruel and sadistic. This time, it's not about freedom versus communisim, at least no in the mind of the individual arab.

    It's about the Devils (US & NATO & Israel) versus Allah! Just wait!

  • Hojon
    Hojon
    Well, there is a history of what the US can do in such respects, and the history is grim. They targeted sivilians in Vietnam, sivilians were killed in Bosnia and Serbia, and sivilians were killed in Iraq. Some "mistakes" were made, and bomb-shelters were blown to Kongdom-Come.

    Spare me.

    Look, Iraq was one of the least civilian-killing wars in the history of the world. We were extremely careful in our attack to only hit military targets. Yes, we missed a few but those became major headlines!

    Compared to WWII the Gulf War was incredibly low on civilian deaths. Don't bring that in here trying to use it to show that America targets civilians.

  • Kent
    Kent
    Don't bring that in here trying to use it to show that America targets civilians.


    I didn't. I just point out that sivilians die in a war - no matter what you think. And what it looks like can clearly be seen in New York now. It's grim, isn't it?

    The idea it's possible to bomb away problem is naive - to say it the least - especcially to bomb away people who are NOT afraid of dying. They will hit back, again and again, and it's NOTHING anyone can do about it.

    Yakki Da

    Kent

    I need more BOE letters, KMs and other material. Those who can send it to me - please do! The new section will be interesting!!

    Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
    http://watchtower.observer.org

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    What would Jesus do?

  • Winston
    Winston

    Kent,

    Thank you for being a voice of reason here.

    Now I don't like your verbal attacks, and I have never express this to you.

    Right now I have to say Your empathy is showing through very brightly.
    Bring us to reason any way you can.

    How long have you LIVED and how long has God LIVED?
    1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to .000000000000000000000000000000001
    Who is like God?

  • TR
    TR

    Fred,

    My Jack Russell Terrier, "Dudley", will find you underneath your bed, and tear you to shreds.

    TR

    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
    —Edmund Burke

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