NATO INVOKES ARTICLE V - Serious

by Amazing 68 Replies latest jw friends

  • Hmmm
    Hmmm

    I agree with Amazing, Bigboi and the other "hawks".

    War has rules. The perpetrators of this have written their own rules that state: "There are no rules." They've shown that innocent people are legitimate targets--just as much or moreso than military targets.

    Will the world ever be rid of terrorism? No. But what helps terrorism flourish is the backing they have. Without wealthy and politically influential support, terrorists are nothing but rock-throwers. Countries that hide and provide succor for terrorists are just as complicit as the getaway driver of a person who kills a shopkeeper during a robbery: accessories to the crime are equally culpable.

    Thus, terrorists have changed the rules of warfare, and their sponsor countries have given them the nod in this. I say we fight back using the same rules. We don't TARGET innocent civilians, but we don't flinch at using weapons of mass destruction to cripple our enemies (the terrorist cells) and their equally-responsible allies (supporting countries).

    Assuming the perpetrators turn out to be Muslim extremists under Bin Laden, which the physical evidence is starting to support, I say we give his political allies (Afghanistan and any other country that hide or supports him in the least) X hours to turn over Bin Laden and ALL his cronies. Otherwise, we treat them as allies of a war enemy, and attack accordingly Afghanistan's military and government targets. If they turn the terrorist leaders over and acknowledge their responsibility, then let the Doves work out a deal with them.

    Then we move on to the next terrorist group. In a war you don't sit back and play defense, you go on the offensive. We don't stop until the enemy surrenders. Since that will never happen, we don't stop until the terrorists are crippled, decimated, EVERY known leader captured or killed. As intelligence pinpoints which lieutenants are taking up the fight, we kill them before they have a chance to plan the next attack. We let the terrorists and their allies call the truce, sign the treaties, surrender. We don't stop until they beg us to.

    Japan was taught this lesson. They were a nation that was as fanatical as, but a bit more honorable than, these Muslim extremists. Their Emperor was considered a god to them. We resorted to drastic measures--two nukes--but it quickly lead to Japan's surrender, and now they're an ally.

    Do I think these terrorists will ever be allies or friends of the western world? No. But if the neighborhood bully wont be my kid's friend, he'll for damn sure be terrified of being his enemy, and his parent's will be afraid not to keep him in check.

    Maybe I'm breaking my cardinal rule, and posting in anger, but the important concept, to me, is that we cut the knees out from under the terrorists by taking out their support.

    Hmmm

  • Winston
    Winston

    Hmmmm,

    You made so much sense here:

    Maybe I'm breaking my cardinal rule, and posting in anger, but the important concept, to me, is that we cut the knees out from under the terrorists by taking out their support.

    Hmmm

    These word are true try not to post out of anger, Your word are true stick to them, fight posting out of anger.

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    Nothing like a coalition - this should have happened yesterday.

    Fox News just reported a possible +30,000 are dead in NYC. 10 for each tower and 10 around the site and mall area.

    The message needs and will be sent as sad as war is and of course more innocent on the other side will lose their lives and turn green.

    dubya better not pull a Clinton or a Bush Sr.

    hawk

  • Grunt
    Grunt

    In my opinion, what we need is to breathe deep, look around, accept the offers of help from other intelligence networks, especially Russia's, find out just who was involved and how deeply. After making sure of our targets then talk with the good people of the country if we can locate any. If we can't then talk to those who oppose terroism in the country next door, if there are any. I think we can find a country that would allow us to use them as a base to go in from and we need that. I personally do not think bin laden could do this alone. I think he had a coaliton of the radical terrorists in several countries and money from sympathisers in more than one country. I think bin laden was a key player no matter who else made up the cast and I hold the Taliban responsible for protecting him, but I think we should talk to them first. Present our evidence, which is comeing in quickly, give them a chance to hand over the guilty ones, do that with each country involved. Only if we can't get them this way should any widespread attack be mounted. If we do attack, then we need to mount a armed intrusion, not just air power. Before any of this is done we need to tighten things up at home, guard our drinking water and other such systems, watch closely those groups attached to these people. I know that these people no more represent all Moslems than the KKK represents all christians, but they do find their followers and supporters out of that community and that must be monitored. After all of these things have been considered and acted on, then and only then should we do all that we can do, without pulling punches, to eliminate not only the people but the infrastructure of any nation that continues to harbor the criminals that did this thing. I don't want ANY innocent people killed, though I know that is a dream. These poor people in Afghanistan have suffered so much already. I don't want us to add to it unless there is no other way to get these criminals out. I think the last thing we need is a feud, as that only escalates. So we should take our time, act slowly but surely and commit a hundred percent even if it means losing more people in the operation than were lost in their attack. There is no place these people can hide if we are really determined to get them, however it should not be done in the heat of passion but with the advice and support of moral people around the world. Everyone should know it is an act of justice not flexing our muscles or trying to push any nation around. I think this is a much bigger and more international group than seems to be the opinion of many. They must be taken down, and taken down as completely as possible, without thought to costs of any kind when we finally get down to it.

  • Zep
    Zep
    Give them 48 hours to turn over Ben Laden and his gang, or start the bombing.

    Well, '48hrs'..'dropping bombs'...lets cool down here a little.

    Here's my thoughts:

    Assuming that the attack is Bin-Laden's handywork. The U.S. should eventually threaten Afghanistan with somekind of strike. Hopefully the mere threat of attack will be enough for the Taliban to do something; to get them to provide the U.S. with some kind of info on bin-ladens past or present location, or just allow US forces into Afganistan to look for him. But considering that the WTC/Pentagon attack was obviously well planned. There is no reason to think the Taliban would know where Bin-Laden is; Bin-Ladens own opeartives in the Al-Qaida wouldn't know since secrecy is the nature of the Al-Qaida.I think Bin-Laden is well hid now, he's a planner...it will be hard to find him, even if he is still in Afghanistan, which i doubt.

    The US has to be careful not to do anything rash. They should be weighing up the need for action against the possiblity of escalation and innocent civilian deaths (something that a decent human should want to avoid at all costs when considered in the light of what has just happened). They have world sympathy, they have the brains, they dont need to do anything stupid. Hopefully, they wont display the same attitude as those who want to go and burn down every mosque thats ever been built. This would, in my eyes, make them as bad as the terrorists themselves.

    Revenge is a dish best served cold.

  • Skimmer
    Skimmer

    Hello Grunt;

    The problems with your proposal are:

    1. It will take far too long, and we cannot afford the luxury of waiting when only a very prompt response will adequately show our resolve.

    2. Extensive involvement with other countries, even our allies, will blunt the response.

    3. It will cost too many American lives; enough have already been lost.

    A hypothetical question for you: in 1945, the United States already had a workable plan (Operation Olympic) for the invasion of the homelands of Imperial Japan. The plan estimated a loss of life of about one million Allied soldiers and four million Japanese soldiers and civilians. The plan did have some similarities to your proposal: it involved a coalition, it relied upon conventional weapons, and it was rather slow paced. President Truman rejected it, saved millions of lives, and earned a healthy respect from other countries. Do you think Truman was mistaken?

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    You have to admit, it would be kinda nice to take out the Taliban at this opportunity, and put in a female despot of our choosing to lead Afghanistan into the 21st century.

  • GentlyFeral
    GentlyFeral

    Ginny asked,

    What if you live in Afghanistan and don't agree with the actions of the government? What are you to do?

    Live in constant fear of arrest, torture and execution, I suppose. Like these women....

    http://www.rawa.org

  • jelly
    jelly

    Ginny asks: (paraphrase)

    ‘What if people are found in Florida that were aiding the terrorist, should we bomb all of Florida?’

    Your simplification is very self-serving. The government of Afghanistan uses its resources to back terrorist groups; this action makes them accomplices. This is much different than a group of people, NOT AFFELIATED WITH THE GOVERNMENT, providing support.

    Jelly

  • Kent
    Kent
    I can't see all countries in NATO giving complete support to retaliation, especially the "not only the terrorists responsible, but hold those nations that host them as equally responsible" part.


    I can see that, loud and clear - no problems about it at all. However, there is limitations to this. NATO is a defence alliance, and the fact the US is a NATO country gives them the RIGHT to get the support they need if they ask for it! That is the agreement, and NO country will deny to help. The consequenses for that country will be to be booted from NATO, and to get sanctions.

    Bombing more innocent people (and there always are innocent people in the crowd) to make a statement to other politicians safe in bunkers hardly makes any sense. It is a very crude 'eye for an eye' style justice that most of the free world has moved beyond.

    This is quite another matter. I don't believe NATO will support anyone wanting to bomb innocent people, and I simply don't believe US president Bush to be THAT stupid, even though he's not the smartest guy I've seen.

    There is a lot to be concidered. First they need to find out WHO is behind these actions, and so far they don't know.

    There is lots of suspicious facts here. Bin Laden is trained by CIA to do terrorism, and he knows the system fairly well. He was trained by the US to do these kinds of actions against the Russians, and now he has maybe turned against the US. Facts are, nobody knows!

    They found a car, sure. Inside the car there was evidence pointing directly to Bin Laden. Would someone smart enough to hide this action for a year be so stupid he would do something like that?

    "Everyone" is talking about the "Palestinians" and PLO. These groups simply don't have the possibilities to set such a grand scale operation out in life!

    The Palestinians had NOTHING WHAT SO EVER to gain by doing this act, especcially the WTC bombing.

    Who DID gain on this?

    ISRAEL did get advantages, and they started up terrorism against the Palestinians before the smoke had stopped in New York! In the shade of the US tragedy, they started up their terrorist actions against the Palestinians - fully aware the Muslems didn't have all that support at the moment.

    The Ex Israeli Prime Minister pointed to "who was responsible" in BBC nearly before plain No 2 hit the WTC towers! Calling for the destruction of Muslems, Palestinians, PLO and every other "target" Israel don't like!

    I don't believe for a moment nobody did know about this - and IF the Israeli did know - they had everything to gain by not telling anyone - as we can see by the hatred and accusations against all Muslems today.

    Irak has no reason for loving the US either. Saddam Hussein has been mentioned, but nobody knows. I really don't think anybody WILL know, because it's in the interest of every security service to shut up!

    What happened to the 4 planes BBC repported shot down by US Airforce? CNN repported in the heat of the events "more plains were coming in against Washington" - and the - SILENCE! What happened? BBC repported from "sources in FBI" these 4 planes were shot down - and then - SILENCE!

    The buildings in WTC had a weak spot in the construction, and as such they were useful targets, since the Terrorists could know they would fall down. All this material were public, and everyone could get to it.

    It's a fact (anyway to the rest of the world) the US is NOT popular in the Middle-East. The foreign policy has been one sided, and lots of people have reasons for hating the US. The Israeli uses US helicopters, jet-fighters, guns and amunition to terrorize their neighbours. The Israeli NEVER gave a damn about UN regulations and demands, and the US has backed them up - all the time.

    Israelis has bombed refugee camps, like they did yesterday, all the time. They have invaded neighbouring countries ALL the time, and nothing ever happened. When Irak did the same, they got all the Hell in the World, and was tried bombed back to the Stone Age.

    Many people don't find that fact fair, and as such - many people do hate that policy.

    I do NOT excuse the terrorists! So there is no need attacking me for writing this, but the US would have to EXPECT anything like this to happen. And I'm 100% sure they also did. It was no shock for the officials, even though the death tolls came as a shock when it happened.

    Because of the "bombing" of the WTC, these terrorists has lost any rights to be treated in any other way that extermination. If we can PROVE who was behind this, I believe NATO and everyone else will assist the US to get these Terrorists blown to Kingdom Come. AND - I believe the country/government (if any of the kind is involved) will be history.

    BUT - instead of BOMBING a country, I believe these people (government etc) should be brouht to trial - like what happened after the cricis in Serbia.

    Bombing sivilians in another country doesn't solve anything. It only adds to the disaster - and will fuel many, many more attacks like this.

    No respect for others, just accepting all kinds of murder and killing anywhere else than inside the US - won't help Americans. It will only make more planes falling out of the sky!

    And, if 8 more planes falls out of the shy, the US will come to a halt. Nobody will ever dare to fly - and how will people travel?

    Yakki Da

    Kent

    I need more BOE letters, KMs and other material. Those who can send it to me - please do! The new section will be interesting!!

    Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
    http://watchtower.observer.org

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