by TheListener 77 Replies latest jw friends
I know it was a rather long and drawn out title but I couldnt' think of another way to word it. :(
Anyway,
This is especially for the new poster Darcy. I was wondering what you felt was necessary to receive everlasting life, whether on heaven or paradise earth?
ooh. that's loaded.
you're asking me to present my own standards by which I'd judge someone's chances of survival.
I'm not good at answering this sort of stuff, because I totally back off of anything to deal with judging. That's Jehovah's work, and it can stay that way.
You'd be better off asking me specific questions probably like how do you feel about this activity, or that. I could give you the general, 'be a good person, seek happiness answer' here, but that's so subjective and vague.
I'll try to answer in that, by the New Testament, God is Love, and he commands Love for one another and for him. So salvation is probably best sought by demonstration of such. I've often reflected on Paul's words that he became all things to all sorts of men that he might reach them, and that to me took an extraordinary amount of love and unwillingness to judge those men by their actions.
When it comes down to judging... well, the gospels point out that Jehovah makes the sun rise for righteous as well as unrighteous. How kind, then, would it be for me to set judgement standards for salvation for anyone, righteous or unrighteous?
He gave us a real simple formula:
...if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9
The Listener - methinks darcy is just GAGGING for an audience.
So salvation is probably best sought by demonstration of such.........."
Hmmm, so demonstrate good behavior traits for salvation?
Perhaps MidwichCuckoo (that's hard to type by the way) but as long as Darcy is responsive and polite I am enjoying the interchange. I found her response to sound genuine to me.
Darcy,
I hear what you're saying and totally agree. It's not for us to judge others, and for what it's worth we're not too good at judging ourselves either. I was having a discussion with a friend of mine who's still a MS in the congregation and we were talking about what was necessary for salvation. He was of the opinion that you needed to follow the rules and regulations set by God in the Bible and be a part of the one true religion. He is very sincere and respectful of my new found explorations into my beliefs.
The question in my first post sounded better in my head than it did once I typed it. What I meant was (I'll try again), Based on scriptural backup what do you feel is necessary to please Jehovah and thus gain everlasting life. Not necessarily for others but for yourself. Is faith in Jesus sacrifice enough in itself or do we have to show our faith and do we have to belong to a specific religion - long but there it is.
I'm not looking for you to defend the Witness doctrine, I know that all too well. I'm really just looking to see what your personal viewpoint is on the matter.
Hi Darcy, I lurk in this forum to try to gain understanding of the witness view of things. I wont bore you with my story but i have never been a witness and never even been inside a kingdom hall. I read your profile and it appears you are a active witness no? If you could further
elaborate on your thoughts about salvation it would help me ...i have the watchtower cd and have read a good bit and it seems like the only salvation promise for the "great crowd" are generic statements like Acts 3:21 or Rom 8:21. I can't find a promise that is personal like what
Paul says in Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Do you think you were crucified with Christ? Do you feel that Christ lives in you personally ?
I really want you thoughts, if you have time tks jerry
It's our birthright! Relax, investigate reality for yourself, be guided by what you find! All things come to them who are patient!
carmel
ok scripturally, we know there's the rights and wrongs, the things Jehovah hates, and the stuff that seems to please him.
However, the one that comes to mind are Jesus words at Mark 3.28, 29: Truly I say to you that all things will be forgiven the sons of men, no matter what sins and blasphemies they blasphemously commit. However, whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is guilty of everlasting sin.
so. don't blaspheme the holy spirit, and don't stab your neighbor or sleep with his wife, and you're pretty much in the clear.
Eh. well, so what's blasphemy against the holy spirit? From research, it appears this refers to opposing god's will, god's active force, god's activities. Therefore, religious toleration would be a good idea for everybody. Now, a hardcore witness will therefore tell you that apostates because they oppose the work with websites and pamphlets are blaspheming the holy spirit. I won't be decisive on that bit though. After all, if I'm to be judged mercifully, I must first show mercy in my own judgements, right? Reap what you sow. You never know who will be able to help you in your time of need.
Hmm. Recovering from the tangent. There's general agreement that good works are required, but I feel it goes beyond that. First, go to the Ten Commandments in Exo. 20. Read those first few. Murder, adultery, theft. These are things visible, proactive wrongdoings. But read that last one. Coveteousness. That is, more or less, to want something with a passion. But this one is different because there aren't signs of coveteousness until it's pushed a person to commit a wrong.
I.E. all sin starts with a coveteousness of some sort. All sin starts with wanting something. Wanting itself isn't wrong, but it can be taken to indecent levels. As in, you want the neighbors wife, you cultivate a friendship, you make a move on her, but it started with wanting. There are crimes of passion, too. I think the rules still apply there too. (Eve was guilty of coveteousness before ever eating the fruit. The bible does not say she spoke to the snake and immediately went to the tree for a snack.)
But my point is that coveteousness is a mental thing. It's the only crime that only the wrongdoer knows about first. Which means that being obedient, attaining salvation is a mental attitude. The tounge speaks what is in the heart (read brain, since we know this phrase refers to the seat of emotions, not the literal heart of a man). James agrees with this. He says in chapter 1 verse 15 "Then the desire, when it has become fertile gives birth to sin, in turn sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death." It starts with how you think.
And still, if you do all these things, the works and the mental attitude... there's no guarantee. Which kinda sucks, but read Zephaniah 2:3 I believe it is, and what do we get, seek righteousness, seek meekness, seek Jehovah, and Probably you will be spared in God's day of judgement. Probably. Read: don't ever get too comfy.
So, it's constant work. We also know from the repeated use of words like undeserved kindness and the like that Jehovah is going to be extremely lenient with us, again taking us back to Jesus' words in Mark. 'All but blasphemies against the holy spirit forgiven.'
Conclusion: I've got some basic ideas and moral principles I know will help me with this doing god's will deal, but there isn't a list of do this do that and you'll definitely make it.
Paul gives lots of great tips for how to do things best, but no black and white instructions except for the big things like murder, adultery, and theivery... idolatry, fornication: these, while sort of clear cut are sometimes blurry lines. Thinking of idolatry, I'm a HUGE beatles fan, and I was told to beware I could be practicing idolatry. I obviously disagree with that. Some would take another view. That's the gray area, and there's lots of it. A good one might be I feel it's ok to read non-WTS fiction. (I think alot of the younger folks in the org. agree with me here)
I hope I've been clear. Second, shorter, refined conclusion: It's all in your head, which is precisely why Jehovah reads hearts and not dialogues of your latest fight.
