Ah yes, the old "morals cannot exist without religion" argument. Every once in a while you'll hear this, usually from sociopaths that really wouldn't have any morals if not for the fear that God will burn them in hell if they're not good.
The thing is... look around. There are lots of people without religion, and yet they aren't all humping sheep, and eating babies, and sleeping in beds crafted from their own feces. They aren't running around all depraved like those bio-zombies in "28 Days Later."
In fact many of them are highly productive members of society--the entire humanism movement, which is utterly devoted to the idea that every human deserves dignity (a highly moral position, but not one that many religions share) is founded in and rose from irreligion.
I always get really sad when I find someone who says that without God in their life, they'd be raving madmen. It makes me lose a little faith in my fellow humans every time.
No Absolute Truth
by Shining One 69 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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under_believer
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parakeet
"Is there no 'absolute truth'? Do you want to live that one out? You then have no moral basis for any law in any society."
If by "absolute truth" you mean absolute as in "coming from an absolute god," then it should follow that religions and nations that have monotheistic traditions would have morally superior histories than pagan religions, who have to muddle their relativistic way through.
I think it would be hard to argue that possessing "absolute" monotheistic truth and moral values reigned in the worst excesses of their adherents' actions, from the OT genocides, the Crusades, the Inquisition up to modern-day religious terrorists.
Belief that God supposedly chiseled "thou shalt not kill" on a rock doesn't seem to have had much effect on slowing down the killing. Why is that?
You can take your ritalin now. -
gumby
Gee...if you really think about it....animals have no bible, no holy book, no visions, no vocal teacher, no schools....and yet they have the same virtues....and better in many cases, than does man. The mothers protect their young and will die for them as does a loving human mother. Oh....yeah, ya got yer bulls and horses and stuff that can breed different ones and have more than one babe, but heck, ya also got yer mormons who do that....and they even love the lord.Then, ya got yer animals that rip each other apart....but heck, ya got yer war goin on right now with them dang humans doin like the animlals. Humans, with all their moral laws, have been the species that have brought the most harm to our pretty little planet....ain't they now? So, I guess we gotta ask...."Do (written) enforced moral laws provide a better enviroment...have they"?
*sends in this question to WTBTS as a suggestion for title of next AWAKE!*
Gumoses
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AlanF
The sad fact is that Shining One's mindset, taken to its logical limit, means that he and his ilk would run rampant over everyone around them if their God were not around to tell them not to hurt other people.
In other words, they believe that they're inherently extremely evil, nasty folk who need a gun to their heads to make them behave.
What a religion!
AlanF
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gumby
And all that one has to do to see cultures without a god (such as the bible god) but yet having values, is to read a little about them to see they do not live in an orgy, heroin shootin, wife beatin, neighbor killin lifestyle.......but that might take a day or two to read such a book and we can't be having that now....can we?
Gumby
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Shazard
Thank God, most of these postmodernists actually only TALK about "there is no truth". In reality those who dare to go to the final conclusion of this "truth" ends with their brains smashed on wall by themselves, so they do favor to human genome.
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jwfacts
With you line of reasoning 'absolute truth' allows you to do equally evil attrocities.
Hitler thought it was absolute truth that Jews were evil so did not care about exterminating them.
Catholics thought due to their absolute truth they could justify crusades.
The reality is that there is no provable absolute truth.
People use the bible to form their own version of absolute truth around their own perverse sense of what they want to believe.The bible ranges from no killing to righteous killing such as stonings and war. It ranges from celibacy to one wife to polygamy. What unacceptable acts or thoughts do you use the bible to justify Shining One?
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Shazard
JWFacts:
"The reality is that there is no provable absolute truth."
Is this claim absolute truth or relative truth?
And how do you know that Hitler and Chatolics were wrong... or you just judge them by your own relative truth which is why better then theirs? So common - is ther truth or there is no truth, in second case term "truth" actually is absurd and is not possible per se. -
trevor
Shining one
The absolute truth is treat others as we wish to be treated and ensure that children are protected from religion so they are free to grow up and live in a way that is best for humans. That is pro-life not anti-life.
To only act in such a way out of fear of a god, or hope of a reward, is selfish.
Such people always accept the notion of people who have not adopted their religion being punished, killed or missing out on the presents. Truly moral people do not need ulterior motives to behave in a decent way.
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jwfacts
Point taken Shazard.
I think the concept of abolute truth to be about as impossible to understand as time. Even things that we think are truth, such as "I think therefore I am" may not be truth. Things as simple as the concept that if i jump off a building gravity will make me fall may not be truth, or may change over time.
My point was from a very limited religious viewpoint as promoted by Shining One, and groups such as JWs. They believe they know what "the truth" is, whatever that is supposed to mean, and then judge everyone else by that limited viewpoint.
I hold to Jesus words, as also part of most religions "love God and love neighbour" and "do unto others as you would like them to do unto you". That concept is enough to guide most people to acceptable lives.
As soon as people start to enter the realms of doctrine and imposing their beliefs on others there will be contention, often leading to blood shed.