No Absolute Truth

by Shining One 69 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    "The existence of absolute truth is an undeniable reality. The only one I know of who tried as much as he could to live without absolute truth was Friedrich Nietzsche, and ultimately he himself failed. People who deny absolute truth only deny certain absolute truths that they personally disagree with. But when they are agreeable to a certain absolute truth, then all of a sudden they sound like fanatical fundementalists."

    To respond, I will begin by correcting the gross inaccuracies in your post regarding the philosophical questioning of absolute truth. First, Nietzsche never denied the existence of absolute reality (or truth). At best, he suggested that humans were incapable of knowing such "reality in and of itself". This was merely the natural continuation of the musings of Kant (see his distinction between the noumenal and phenomenal worlds and categorical imperatives); Schopenhauer, Hume, Descartes and Spinoza. Second, having said that, Nietzsche's name is immortal and his philosophy continues to change and influence the lives of humans to this day. He was and remains an intellectual revolutionary and one of the most profoundly influential thinkers in the history of human philosophy, so I find it rather amusing that you judge him a failure, when his name will ring in eternity. Do you share similar fame? Have you changed the course of human history with your words and ideas? If not, I find it rather humorous for you to be judging the life work of a luminary like Nietzsche.

    People who deny absolute truth only deny "certain" absolute truths? On whose authority do you make this statement? Have you personally interviewed every human being on the planet who fits this category in order for you to make this nonsensical, sweeping generalization? No? Then you have absolutely no justification for this statement. Truth is simply the state of things as they truly are, with the absence of perceptual or cognitive filtering. In other words, it is beyond the scope of humanity to know this absolute state since it would require a human being to step out of their constructed, subjective realities and abandon all modes of physical perception.

    Who has stated that a group of people agreeing to a certain absolute truth are all fanatics? I certainly dont believe this. I know many level headed and intelligent religious believers (christians, jews, hindus, muslims) that do subscribe to a certain "absolute truth" (e.g. that there is a god). Even though I personally do not agree to their particular subjective reality, I would hardly consider them "fanatic fundamentalists". A "fundamentalist" is a person who automatically assumes that they ALONE have access to an "absolute truth" and therefore all OTHER possible "truths" are necessarily "non-truth". Listen to the words of Rex and Shazard, so completely convinced that they alone are correct, that only "jesus" is the answer, that all who reject their own , subjective little "jesus universe" will be burning in hell at the ends of their loving deity. These two exemplify "fundamentalism", if you are looking for textbook examples. Fortunately, many of my religious friends are open minded enough to realize the possibility that they may be in error. Just as I, as an atheist, am perfectly willing to abandon atheism should there ever be the presentation of factual, replicable and empirical evidence for the existence of the supernatural.

  • jgnat
    jgnat
    A "fundamentalist" is a person who automatically assumes that they ALONE have access to an "absolute truth" and therefore all OTHER possible "truths" are necessarily "non-truth".

    A very kind summary Kid-A, thank you.

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    Jnat,

    I should have added that yourself and LittleToe would be excellent examples of "non-fundamentalist", rational and exemplary Christian perspectives.

  • wednesday
    wednesday


    The only real thing I understood while an active jws was, if I didn't follow the WTS rules, the beatings would begin. I really did not understand why it was wrong, just that none of my friends would speak to me if I didn't go in service or follow all their laws. I was so terrifed about the stigma of breaking their rules I failed to understand that love for God and our fellow man would stop most people from breaking these laws. And having sex with a sheep never entered my mind, but I do recall hearing about it at the KH.

    now since I am inactive and have begun to actually think, I realize that the average person does not need the theart of Df to stop him from stealing, murdering etc. These are things that humans just know are wrong. And they in themselves do have consequences, but not from the elders or a jc meeting..Since I stopped worrying about the elders, I actually began to consider how God feels, and how my fellow man feels. As Gumby says, I don't cheat on my hubby b/c it would hurt him badly and it is a trust between us, I don't need an jc meetings to know that, nor do i need the bible. not that I feel the Bible is bad, but it is filled with contridictions and people use it to justify any terrible thing they want to.

    Last night I saw Whoopi glodberg on homebox. It was an old show but I watched anyhow. She rightly pointed out the the same Bible book people use to condemn homosexuality, ie, "men lying with men' in Leviticus, well that book also tells us to kill our children if they are disrespectufl, , things like that. I have decided that I will not base my life around that book in the Bible. Most likely the Bible has been somewhat crorrupted by men, but I believe I can pick out of it things that help me to live a good life, The ten commandments, are good, but I did not need them to stop me from killling, adultry. (the nation of Iseral must have been some wild bunch if they had to have this stuff written out before they would do it) However, I do see the scripture in matthew that says (in part) "...those people honor me with their mouth, but their heart is far removed from me". to me, this is how I see jws and most people who go to church. they really fail to get it. They don't really know what loving God means.

    So for now, I am trying to lead a decent life, not hurt others, do good as much as I am able, give to those in need, and hope that God, or karma will remember me when I need help.

    I hope you find peace

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    Hi Balsam,
    >I still live by standards of basic moral codes, but I do not believe in imposing them on others.

    OK, if my moral code allows me to take what I wish from you where does your idea go wrong? What, you say it's wrong to steal? Are you imposing your moral code on me? What right do you have to do that?

    >People who clearly see that there is no such thing as absolute truth have no problem living productive lives, happy lives, and making up our minds

    Yes and your logic is nonexistant. You are living in a concpt that is a lie. It's a fantasy of your own mind and not consistent with reality. You are insane....Do you see what I mean? It does not work in the real world.
    Rex

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    Kid,
    >Even if it was ever empirically proven that your god existed,

    You believe in a moral concept, you have one, right? You cannot empirically prove a moral concept yet you believe it exists! Your philosophy is untenable and you are in a argument that is suicidal.

    >he would be worthy only of mockery, derision and judgement by the creatures he supposedly created "in his image".

    Subjective moralization is also empirically unprovable. You defeat your own argument.

    >This tiny god you worship is apparently morally inferior to the majority of human beings on this planet.

    More of the same and the usual bluster from someone who typically spews hatred at any who oppose him. Just like the Watchtower taught you. LOL
    Rex

  • Shining One
  • Shining One
    Shining One

    Jstalin,
    >Please explain. God decided that there was one set of rules in the old covenant, yet all those living in the new covenant were exempt from those rules.

    Where did you study theology, the Awake magazine? The Mosaic covenant had a purpose and it was to lead people of that time period (dispensation) until the advent of the Messiah. The Law was a proof to man that he could not reach God by his own righteousness. Study the book of Romans with a good study Bible.

    >Seems like a change of mind to me. In addition, god had no problem ordering the slaughter of thousands in the old testament wars.

    That's called 'judgement' and in hand with the reality that all of us have an appointed time to die it is entirely irrelevant. Who are you to say, 'wait, that's immoral' when you have no fame of reference to begin with? You declare that there is no god because this cannot be proven empirically yet you believe in a concept (absolute moral wrong) that cannot be proven empirically! Not only that you are a thinking self-aware creature who denies the very proof of your own thought patterns...
    Rex

  • mkr32208
    mkr32208
    he and his ilk



    "Do you know what an ilk is?"

    "A big deer."

    "Thats right, and if I happen to see you and your buddy around here again I'm gonna shoot me an ilk, you understand...?"

  • mkr32208
    mkr32208

    I was laughing so hard at some of the comments that I about soiled myself!

    The real "truth" to me is that there is no absolute truth! People equate "fair" with "right" and the reality is that life ISN'T fair! It's not fair that my wife never knew either of her grandfathers and I still have one and had the other until fairly recently. It's not "right" as it's not "fair" yes you say but that is beyond human control! It isn't however out of GODS control right? So by the idiot definitions of the fundy fools GOD isn't fair so he has no business speaking to me of "truth." This is even worse when one brings in child abusers murderers rapist arsonist and the list goes on and on! What I would suggest to the fu*ktard fundies (not to the more "reasonable" Christians!) is that their own book was written based on what some sheppard thought was "fair" in his limited world view! Then a few centuries later some other sheppard added his opinion on what was fair and so on and so on! None of these people had a direct pipeline to god! That's why there are passages telling how much to sell children for as slaves how to go about dealing with rape incest murder and these things CHANGED as the bible progressed!

    It is a combination of human rights and might makes right and majority and law and politics and these things are forever shifting! Having said that however I believe that as governments get AWAY from the bullshit of the bible and religion that things become more fair and most people feel that "fair" is a reasonable approximation of truth! It isn't true but people do feel that way!

    I'll use a quote from the simpsons to help clear it up!

    "it's wrong to steal"

    "bart, suppose a man's family is staving is it wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed them"

    "no"

    "suppose he has a big family would it be wrong to steal a whole truckload of bread"

    "no"

    "suppose his family does not like bread, they like cigarettes..."

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