OK believers, time to put up or shut up...

by Gregor 238 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  lovelylil

  Gregor,

  This is were you are wrong. I was not trying to DEFEND my beliefs because they do not need defending. You original question was if there is a God why does he permit suffering? You asked those who are believers to give evidence as to why they believe it. I was trying to give an answer based on MY beliefs only.Because I cannot answer in any other way. Everyone is biased in that respect because they have their own belief system. Everyone else who answered this thread tried to do the same thing. Simply, answer your question based on what THEY believe.

  No one was trying to shove our beliefs down anyones throat or say we are right you are wrong. That is the point that many of you are not getting. If you ask someone if they believe in God and why, then the people who will respond are those who have that belief. If you don't want a response because you feel someone is pushing their views than WHY would you even ask the question in the first place? If someone answers your question, how can some of you say "you are pushing it down my throat". Don't ask the Q anymore if you dont want an answer. You don't see any believers asking the unbelievers WHY they dont believe in God do you? Frankly I don't think most of us really care.

  Never once did I get on the board and say I am here to convert anyone to a certain belief. I usually only talk religion with the other believers. No one can convert anyone anyway, because religion is a personal choice. There is no such thing really as converting someone. And there is no really right or wrong choice. As long as you are not hurting anyone, what difference does it make? I think all religions have some good and all have some bad.

  My point is that the whole Q from the beginning was a loaded Q. Thanks though for the post becuase you have helped me to be better able to indentify a loaded Q for next time and simply avoid it.
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  Tea4Two

  Sonnyboy I can see you have no answer so I will ask anyone.....why did God put the temptation in the Garden of Eden in the first place? He gave Adam and Eve Life just to take it away if they ate from some tree he told them not eat or they will die....I can't understand that logic.
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  startingover

  One thing believers in Jesus/God who live in the US (and most likely other places) may not appreciate is that they are in the majority and their beliefs are conveyed in many different ways as being fact. They don't have to actively spread it, it's imbedded in this culture. Just like being around JW's after you have left. There is a whole set of words and ideas that are accepted as fact by the group when in reality they are all unprovable and are based solely on faith.

  If you come to the conclusion that it's BS and you still live in that culture, it can be very irritating. Try being around a group of JW's for a while and maybe you will understand. It's the same thing.
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  lovelylil

  starting over,

  I can understand how you feel. That is a really good point you made and it must be frustrating. I've been in similiar shoes before so I am really sorry for what your are going through. It is especially hard if you are around a group that feels their way is the ONLY right way. My thoughts are with you.
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  kid-A

  The problem, Lil, is that from my experience and those of the majority of my atheist friends, is that most "believers" DO shove it down your throat at the first opportunity. Go back a few posts to Rev. Frank:

  Man has failed us all though life....Christ hasn't failed us...man has. What's your excuse, my friend?

  To me, this sort of nonsense epitomizes the attitudes of the majority of believers, JW or not. Broad, meaningless statements backed by no evidence, ending with a ridiculous "veiled" threat that if we DONT accept HIS god, we need to offer "some excuse" for our evil heathen attitudes.

  Now, you seem like a rational person not prone to this tendency, however, try to understand the perspective of an atheist ex-JW who has not only had to divest themself of all the watchtower garbage, but then needs to confront OTHER peddlers of religion, other fundamentalists, etc etc. And believe me, this board has its fair share of radical fundamentalist loonies. While I dont share Gregor's anger because frankly I dont give a rats ass what someone chooses to believe, and I am completely happy without believing in the supernatural, I can certainly understand it.
• 

  AuldSoul

  beksbks,

  Just believe, just have faith, and god will take care of the rest. I'm so glad there are scientists and researchers out there, that were unable to take this path. Look at the progresses we have made in medicine alone. Yes, we have also managed to discover/create plenty of harmful things too, but as we move along, we learn how to address that as well.

  Question: What were the theological beliefs of Sir Isaac Newton, Archimedes, Reimann, Lister, Einstein, Klein, Salk, Curie, the Wright brothers, Tesla, or Kaluza? I detest attempts to paint scientific endeavor and progress as a pursuit reserved for the anti-religious or non-religious.

  Anthropologically speaking, civilizations would have never formed had it not been for religion, so none of your advances could have occurred because there would have been precious little incentive for invention beyond that necessary to obtain food, clothing, and shelter for nomadic tribes.

  Your statement, in my opinion, echoes the common current belief that religion has had no positive effect on humanity. History proves, undeniably, otherwise. History proves remarks such as yours to be sterotypical generalization without any basis in reality (i.e. ignorant prejudice). Unless you believe that the existence of cvilization, the ability to write, and other advances that arose directly as a result of religions are not positive effects. From the perspective of 200,000 years in the future that may prove to be a correct assessment.

  But, over the past 5,000 years our having developed the ability to communicate ideas visually through representative characters has certainly been a boon to those scientists and researchers you spoke of. How far would we have gotten on our path of scientific progress without writing, beksbks?

  I have never known a person who believed that the existence of God should keep humans from acting, discovering, learning, or progressing. I feel certain there are some cults out there with such beliefs, but I daresay they do not represent the mainstream believers in God.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
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  sir82

  Here's (one of the) problem(s) I have with Christianity....

  The message of the religion, stripped of all extraneous stuff, seems to boil down to God telling people, "worship me in the way I demand, or I will condemn you to an eternity of sheer excruciating unrelenting torment...I'll give you 80 or 90 years, tops, to figure out the right way to worship me...or less, if you meet with untimely death...if you haven't figured it out in that time, or if me-forbid you happen to be born in Darfur or some other missionary-lacking area, I will wrack you with torture for billions of trillions years..."

  The JW message is only slightly less appalling, just replace "trillions of years of torture" with "everlasting annihilation".

  How does a life of 1-99 years of "sin" merit trillions of years of agony in hell? Why create such a system in the first place? If you're God, you can set up your "system" any way you please. Why create unending punishment for a short human lifespan of sin? And make it all hinge on your acceptance of an invisible entity that does not communicate directly with you?

  This is not an attempt to "flame" anyone, I genuinely don't understand this, and don't understand the appeal of a God who offers a deal such as this.
• 

  AuldSoul

  sir82,

  This is not an attempt to "flame" anyone, I genuinely don't understand this, and don't understand the appeal of a God who offers a deal such as this.

  I think that is the message of organized religions and that it would be inappropriate to tie the message of organized religions to the message of the Bible. That is just my opinion.

  In addition, I think it is unfair to assume that the Bible is the end-all, be-all storehouse of human knowledge and wisdom gifted to us by God. The Bible itself encourages reliance on the spirit as a teacher, application of our logical thinking ability, and so on. It seems that should be uneccessary if the Bible was holding itself out to contain all we need in the way of knowledge and understanding.

  It would be the equivalent of science relying SOLELY on the findings of Archimedes, Euclid, Pliny the Elder, Plato, and Aristotle, for a Christian to rely solely on these writing for their viewpoints and beliefs. Such a thought defies anything resembling logic.

  I don't believe that the deal you find troubling is actually God's deal. I think that "deal" is the result of humans trying to control other humans through fear and manipulation of desires.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
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  lovelylil

  Kid A,

  you make some really good points. I can understand that. I don't know why more people just don't consider their religion to be their own personal choice and leave it at that. Anyone who thinks they are all the answers is just decieving themselves. All of us were born to free to decide what we want.

  Thanks for sharing that, I can see why people react the way they do. I used to be the preach at everyone person too in the JWs. Now, even though I am still a Christian, I try not to push my beliefs on others. No one likes that. And I only talk about the bible with other believers. What point is it to talk about the bible with an athiest anyway? Unless you want to argue. Christianity is only one belief system and the bible is their book. Other religions have their own books. Other people have no books. We should just find common ground with fellow humans and leave it at that. The problem with most Christian religions is they take everything in the bible literally and think they have to convert the world. This is totally impossible, to convert the world it would take a God to do it. Mostly when you preach at people, you just annoy them.
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  kid-A

  "Christianity is only one belief system and the bible is their book. Other religions have their own books. Other people have no books. We should just find common ground with fellow humans and leave it at that"

  Lil, thank you for that eloquent post. It was beautifully expressed. I think if more people had your attitude, the world would be a much better place indeed, for all of us.