Atheists Worst Nightmare!

by SickofLies 75 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • SickofLies
    SickofLies

    One of the most celebrated examples of transitional fossils is our collection of fossil hominids (see Figure 1.4.4 below). Based upon the consensus of numerous phylogenetic analyses, Pan troglodytes (the chimpanzee) is the closest living relative of humans. Thus, we expect that organisms lived in the past which were intermediate in morphology between humans and chimpanzees. Over the past century, many spectacular paleontological finds have identified such transitional hominid fossils.

    [Figure 1.4.4: Hominid skulls]

    Figure 1.4.4. Fossil hominid skulls. (Images © 2000 Smithsonian Institution.) (larger 76K JPG version)

  • heathen
    heathen

    I believe in God myself but I notice alot of religionists using false information . Myself I had no idea that the banana was actually created by man apparently neither did those involved in the movie . They did no research on the topic and just jumped to conclusions and presenting a lie as evidence of a creator. It's apparent that God gave us the ability to tamper with his materials and use them for our benefit .

  • SickofLies
    SickofLies

    Prediction 1.5: Chronological order of intermediates

    Fossilized intermediates should appear in the correct general chronological order based on the standard tree. Any phylogenetic tree predicts a relative chronological order of the evolution of hypothetical common ancestors and intermediates between these ancestors. For instance, in our current example, the reptile-mammal common ancestor (B) and intermediates should be older than the reptile-bird common ancestor (A) and intermediates.

    Note, however, that there is some "play" within the temporal constraints demanded by any phylogeny, for two primary reasons: (1) the statistical confidence (or conversely, the error) associated with a phylogeny and its specific internal branches, and (2) the inherent resolution of the fossil record (ultimately stemming from the vagaries of the fossilization process). As mentioned earlier, most phylogenetic trees have some branches with high confidence, because they are well-supported by the data, and other branches in which we have less confidence, because they are statistically less significant and poorly supported by the data. See also the caveats associated with phylogenetic analysis.

    When evaluating the geological order of fossils, remember that once a transitional species appears there is no reason why it must become extinct and be replaced. For instance, some organisms have undergone little change in as much as 100 to 200 million years in rare cases. Some familiar examples are the "living fossils", such as the coelacanth, which has persisted for approximately 80 million years; the bat, which has not changed much in the past 50 million years; and even the modern tree squirrel, which has not changed in 35 million years. In fact, paleontological studies indicate the average longevity of 21 living families of vertebrates is approximately 70 million years (Carroll 1997, p. 167).

    Furthermore, the fossil record is demonstrably incomplete; species appear in the fossil record, then disappear, then reappear later. An exceptional instance is the coelacanth, which last appeared in the fossil record 80 million years ago, yet it is alive today. During the Cretaceous (a critical time in bird evolution), there is a 50 million-year gap in the diplodocoidean record, greater than a 40 million-year gap in the pachycephalosaurian record, greater than a 20 million-year gap in the trodontidiae, and about a 15 million-year gap in the oviraptosaurian fossil record (both of these last two orders of dinosaurs are maniraptoran coelurosaurian theropods, which figure significantly in the evolution of birds). During the Jurassic, there is a 40 million-year gap in the fossil record of the heterodontosauridae (Sereno 1999). Most organisms do not fossilize, and there is no reason why a representative of some species must be found in the fossil record. As every graduate student in scientific research knows (or eventually learns, perhaps the hard way), arguments based upon negative evidence are very weak scientific arguments, especially in the absence of proper positive controls. Thus, based on the fossil remains of modern species and the known gaps in the current paleontological records of extinct species, the observation of transitional species "out of order" by 40 million years should be fairly common. This degree of "play" in the fossil record is actually rather minor, considering that the fossil record of life spans between 2 to 3.8 billion years and that of multicellular organisms encompasses a total of ~660 million years. An uncertainty of 40 million years is equivalent to about a 1% or 6% relative error, respectively—rather small overall.

    Confirmation:

    The reptile-bird intermediates mentioned above date from the Upper Jurassic and Lower Cretaceous (about 150 million years ago), whereas pelycosauria and therapsida (reptile-mammal intermediates) are older and date from the Carboniferous and the Permian (about 250 to 350 million years ago, see the Geological Time Scale). This is precisely what should be observed if the fossil record matches the standard phylogenetic tree.

    The most scientifically rigorous method of confirming this prediction is to demonstrate a positive corellation between phylogeny and stratigraphy, i.e. a positive corellation between the order of taxa in a phylogenetic tree and the geological order in which those taxa first appear and last appear (whether for living or extinct intermediates). For instance, within the error inherent in the fossil record, prokaryotes should appear first, followed by simple multicellular animals like sponges and starfish, then lampreys, fish, amphibians, reptiles, mammals, etc., as shown in Figure 1. Contrary to the erroneous (and unreferenced) opinions of some anti-evolutionists (e.g. Wise 1994, p. 225-226), studies from the past ten years addressing this very issue have confirmed that there is indeed a positive corellation between phylogeny and stratigraphy, with statistical significance (Benton 1998; Benton and Hitchin 1996; Benton and Hitchin 1997; Benton et al. 1999; Benton et al. 2000; Benton and Storrs 1994; Clyde and Fisher 1997; Hitchin and Benton 1997; Huelsenbeck 1994; Norell and Novacek 1992a; Norell and Novacek 1992b; Wills 1999). Using three different measures of phylogeny-stratigraphy correlation [the RCI, GER, and SCI (Ghosts 2.4 software, Wills 1999)], a high positive correlation was found between the standard phylogenetic tree portrayed in Figure 1 and the stratigraphic range of the same taxa, with very high statistical significance (P < 0.0001) (this work, Ghosts input file available upon request).

    As another specific example, an early analysis published in Science by Mark Norell and Michael Novacek (Norell and Novacek 1992b) examined 24 different taxa of vertebrates (teleosts, amniotes, reptiles, synapsids, diapsids, lepidosaurs, squamates, two orders of dinosaurs, two orders of hadrosaurs, pachycephalosaurs, higher mammals, primates, rodents, ungulates, artiodactyls, ruminants, elephantiformes, brontotheres, tapiroids, chalicotheres, Chalicotheriinae, and equids). For each taxa, the phylogenetic position of known fossils was compared with the stratigraphic position of the same fossils. A positive correlation was found for all of the 24 taxa, 18 of which were statistically significant. Note that the correlation theoretically could have been negative. A statistically significant negative correlation would indicate that, in general, organisms rooted deeply in the phylogeny are found in more recent strata—a strong macroevolutionary inconsistency. However, no negative correlations were observed.

    As a third example, Michael Benton and Rebecca Hitchin published a more recent, greatly expanded, and detailed stratigraphic analysis of 384 published cladograms of various multicellular organisms (Benton and Hitchin 1997). Using the three measures of congruence between the fossil record and phylogeny mentioned above (the RCI, GER, and SCI), these researchers observed values "skewed so far from a normal distribution [i.e. randomness] that they provide evidence for strong congruence of the two datasets [fossils and cladograms]." Furthermore, Benton and Hitchin's analysis was extremely conservative, since they made no effort to exclude cladograms with poor resolution or to exclude cladograms with very small numbers of taxa. Including both of these types of cladograms will add confounding random elements to the analysis and will decrease the apparent concordance between stratigraphy and cladograms. Even so, the results were overall extremely statistically significant (P < 0.0005). As the authors comment in their discussion:

    "... the RCI and SCI metrics showed impressive left-skewing; the majority of cladograms tested show good congruence between cladistic and stratigraphic information. Cladists and stratigraphers may breathe easy: the cladistic method appears, on the whole, to be finding phylogenies that may be close to the true phylogeny of life, and the sequence of fossils in the rocks is not misleading. ... it would be hard to explain why the independent evidence of the stratigraphic occurrence of fossils and the patterns of cladograms should show such striking levels of congruence if the fossil record and the cladistic method were hopelessly misleading." (Benton and Hitchin 1997, p. 889)

    Additionally, if the correlation between phylogeny and stratigraphy is due to common descent, we would expect the correlation to improve over longer geological time frames (since the relative error associated with the fossil record decreases). This is in fact observed (Benton et al. 1999). We also would expect the correlation to improve, not to get worse, as more fossils are discovered, and this has also been observed (Benton and Storrs 1994).

  • SickofLies
    SickofLies

    Claim CF002:

    Complexity does not arise from simplicity.

    Response:

    1. Complexity arises from simplicity all the time. The Mandelbrot set is an example (Dewey 1996). Real-life examples include the following: A pan of water with heat applied uniformly to its bottom will develop convection currents that are more complex than the still water; complex hurricanes arise from similar principles; complex planetary ring systems arise from simple laws of gravitation; complex ant nests arise from simple behaviors; and complex organisms arise from simpler seeds and embryos.
    2. Complexity should be expected from evolution. In computer simulations, complex organisms were more robust than simple ones (Lenski et al. 1999), and natural selection forced complexity to increase (Adami et al. 2000). Theoretically, complexity is expected because complexity-generating processes dissipate the entropy from solar energy influxes, in accordance with the second law of thermodynamics (Wicken 1979). Ilya Prigogine won the Nobel Prize "for his contributions to non-equilibrium thermodynamics, particularly the theory of dissipative structures" (Nobel Foundation 1977). According to Prigogine, "it is shown that non-equilibrium may become a source of order and that irreversible processes may lead to a new type of dynamic states of matter called 'dissipative structures' " (Prigogine 1977, 22).

    References:

    1. Adami, C., C. Ofria and T. C. Collier, 2000. Evolution of biological complexity. Proceedings of the National Academy of Science USA 97(9): 4463-4468. http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/9/4463
    2. Dewey, David, 1996. Introduction to the Mandelbrot set. http://www.ddewey.net/mandelbrot/
    3. Lenski, R. E., C. Ofria, T. C. Collier and C. Adami, 1999. Genome complexity, robustness and genetic interactions in digital organisms. Nature 400: 661-664.
    4. Nobel Foundation 1977. The Nobel Prize in chemistry 1977. http://nobelprize.org/chemistry/laureates/1977
    5. Prigogine, Ilya, 1977. Time, structure, and fluctuations, http://www.nobel.se/chemistry/laureates/1977/prigogine-lecture.pdf
    6. Wicken, Jeffrey S., 1979. The generation of complexity in evolution: A thermodynamic and information-theoretical discussion. Journal of Theoretical Biology 77: 349-
  • SickofLies
    SickofLies

    Claim CC201:

    If evolution proceeds via the accumulation of small steps, we should see a smooth continuum of creatures across the fossil record. Instead, we see long periods where species do not change, and there are gaps between the changes.

    Source:

    Morris, Henry M., 1974. Scientific Creationism, Green Forest, AR: Master Books, pg. 78.
    Johnson, Phillip E., 1990. Evolution as dogma: The establishment of naturalism. First Things no. 6, p. 15-22, http://www.arn.org/docs/johnson/pjdogma1.htm

    Response:

    1. The idea that gradual change should appear throughout the fossil record is called phyletic gradualism. It is based on the following tenets:
      1. New species arise by the transformation of an ancestral population into its modified descendants.
      2. The transformation is even and slow.
      3. The transformation involves most or all of the ancestral population.
      4. The transformation occurs over most or all of the ancestral species' geographic range.

      However, all but the first of these is false far more often that not. Studies of modern populations and incipient species show that new species arise mostly from the splitting of a small part of the original species into a new geographical area. The population genetics of small populations allow this new species to evolve relatively quickly. Its evolution may allow it to spread into new geographical areas. Since the actual transitions occur relatively quickly and in a relatively small area, the transitions do not often show up in the fossil record. Sudden appearance in the fossil record often simply reflects that an existing species moved into a new region.

      Once species are well adapted to an environment, selective pressures tend to keep them that way. A change in the environment that alters the selective pressure would then end the "stasis" (or lead to extinction).

      It should be noted that even Darwin did not expect the rate of evolutionary change to be constant.
      [N]atural selection will generally act very slowly, only at long intervals of time, and only on a few of the inhabitants of the same region. I further believe that these slow, intermittent results accord well with what geology tells us of the rate and manner at which the inhabitants of the world have changed (Darwin 1872, 140-141, chap. 4).

      "But I must here remark that I do not suppose that the process ever goes on so regularly as is represented in the diagram, though in itself made somewhat irregular, nor that it goes on continuously; it is far more probable that each form remains for long periods unaltered, and then again undergoes modification (Darwin 1872, 152).

      It is a more important consideration . . . that the period during which each species underwent modification, though long as measured by years, was probably short in comparison with that during which it remained without undergoing any change (Darwin 1872, 428, chap. 10).

      "it might require a long succession of ages to adapt an organism to some new and peculiar line of life, for instance, to fly through the air; and consequently that the transitional forms would often long remain confined to some one region; but that, when this adaptation had once been effected, and a few species had thus acquired a great advantage over other organisms, a comparatively short time would be necessary to produce many divergent forms, which would spread rapidly and widely throughout the world (Darwin 1872, 433).

    2. The imperfection of the fossil record (due to erosion and periods unfavorable to fossil preservation) also causes gaps, although it probably cannot account for all of them.
    3. Some transitional sequences exist, which, despite an uneven rate of change, still show a gradual continuum of forms.
    4. The fossil record still shows a great deal of change over time. The creationists who make note of the many gaps almost never admit the logical conclusion: If they are due to creation, then there have been hundreds, perhaps even millions, of separate creation events scattered through time.
    5. Links:

      Elsberry, Wesley R. 1996. Punctuated equilibria. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/punc-eq.html

  • gold_morning
    gold_morning

    Evolutionists often speak of missing links. They say that the bridge between man and the apes is the "missing link," the hypothetical ape-like ancestor of both. But there are supposed missing links all over the evolutionary tree. For instance, dogs and bears are thought to be evolutionary cousins, related to each other through a missing link. The same could be said for every other stop on the tree. All of the animal types are thought to have arisen by the transformation of some other animal type, and at each branching node is a missing link, and between the node and the modern form are many more.

    If you still don't know what a missing link is, don't worry. No one knows what a missing link is, because they are missing! We've never seen one. They're still missing. Evolution depends on innumerable missing links, each of which lived in the unobserved past and have gone extinct, replaced by their evermore evolved descendants.

    While we don't really know what a missing link is (or was), we can know what they should be. As each type evolves into something else, there should be numerous in-between types, each stage gaining more and more traits of the descendant while losing traits of the ancestor.

    If some type of fish evolved into some type of amphibian, there should have been distinct steps along the way of 90% fish/10% amphibian; then 80% fish/20% amphibian; etc., leading to the 100% amphibians we have today. You would suspect that unless evolution has completely stopped, there might even be some transitional links alive today, but certainly they lived and thrived for a while in the past before they were replaced.

    Actually, evolutionists don't mention missing links much anymore. With the introduction of "punctuated equilibrium" in the early 70s, they seem to have made their peace with the lack of transitional forms in the fossil record. Their claim is that basic animal types exhibited "stasis" (or equilibrium) for a long period, but they changed rapidly (punctuation) as the environment underwent rapid change, so rapidly they had little opportunity to leave fossils. Thus we wouldn't expect to find transitional forms or missing links. Fair enough, but the fact is we don't find them. Evolution says they did exist, but we have no record of them. Creation says they never existed, and agree that we have no record of them.

    Some of these gaps which should be filled in by missing links are huge. Consider the gap between invertebrates and vetebrate fish. Which marine sea creature evolved into a fish with a backbone and internal skeleton? Fish fossils are even found in the lower Cambrian, and dated very early in the evolution scenario. But there are no missing links, no hint of ancestors. The missing links, which should be present in abundance, are still missing!

    Charles Darwin wrote, "Lastly, looking not to any one time, but to all time, if my theory be true, numberless intermediate varieties, linking closely together all the species of the same group, must assuredly have existed. But, as by this theory, innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?" (Origin of Species, 1859). Since Darwin put forth his theory, scientists have sought fossil evidence indicating past organic transitions. Nearly 150 years later, there has been no evidence of transition found thus far in the fossil record.

    Darwin defines evolution as "descent with modification." However, Natural Selection is known to be a conservative process, not a means of developing something complex from something simple. With increased understanding of genetics it was thought perhaps Natural Selection in conjunction with genetic mutation allowed for the development of all species from a common ancestor. However, this is theoretical and controversial, since "beneficial" mutations have yet to be observed. In fact, scientists have only observed harmful, "downward" mutations thus far.

    Just thoughts again....interesting????? huh?

    gold_morning

  • SickofLies
    SickofLies

    Claim CI131:

    In every case where a machine's origin can be determined, it is the result of intelligent agency. (A machine is a device for transmitting or modifying force or energy.) Out of billions of observations, there are no exceptions. It should be considered a law of nature that machines, including those in living organisms, have an intelligent cause.

    Source:

    Scot, Dave. 2006. Machines are the result of intelligent agency. http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/778

    Response:

    1. The claim is an argument by analogy: Life is like man-made objects in containing machines, therefore it is like man-made objects in having an intelligent cause. It suffers the weaknesses of all arguments by analogy. In particular, it ignores dissimilarities between life and design, and the similarity has questionable relevance to intelligence.

      If the argument were valid, it could equally be argued that, in every case where a machine's origin can be determined, the machine is made by humans, and therefore all life is man-made.
    2. Many machines occur in nature without the involvement of intelligence or, indeed, of any kind of life. The following list is far from exhaustive.

      • Inclined planes, perhaps the simplest type of machine, are ubiquitous on earth. Functions include causing waves to break and making it easier for animals to climb heights.
      • Ice wedges, another form of wedge, contribute significantly to erosion.
      • Molecular bonds function as springs as they transmit and distribute forces through materials.
      • Thunder clouds generate electrical forces.
      • The earth as a whole is a dynamo, converting mechanical motion of convection into a magnetic field.
      • Geysers produce eruptions which are predictable and fairly regular. If Paley's watch can be considered a machine, surely Yellowstone's Old Faithful is a machine, too, but I have never heard any suggestion that it is designed.
    3. Other machines are created by life but not by intelligence. Genetic algorithms design or help to design many kinds of machines, from antennae to jet engines (Marczyk 2004). One may attempt to argue that items designed by a genetic algorithm inherit the intelligent agency of the algorithm's designer, but this misses the point that no human mental activity directs the immediate operation of the algorithm. In some cases, for example in some electronic circuits, the algorithmically-designed results show no resemblance to their human-designed versions, and indeed, cannot be explained via human design methods (Koza et al. 2003).

      Unintelligent animals also create a wide variety of machines, such as the orb weaver's spider webs, the ant lion's pit traps, and air-conditioned termite nests. Again, one may appeal that the designer of the designer might be intelligent, but that raises the possibility that maybe intelligence starts with the designer of the designer of the designer, or even further back.

    Links:

    Camp, Robert. 2005. Very like a . . . machine? http://www.csicop.org/intelligentdesignwatch/analogy.html

    References:

    1. Koza, John R., Martin A. Keane and Matthew J. Streeter, 2003. Evolving inventions. Scientific American 288(2) (Feb.): 52-59.
    2. Marczyk, Adam. 2004. Genetic algorithms and evolutionary computation. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/genalg/genalg.html
  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    gold_morning:

    Evolutionists often speak of missing links.

    ...Actually, evolutionists don't mention missing links much anymore

    Well, which is it?

    Instead of copying and pasting what creationists claim evolutionists think, why don't you read what evolutionists actually have to say? You'd find it far more enlightening.

  • gold_morning
    gold_morning

    Thanks ...SickofLies,

    Thanks for the infor...and for reading my posts. I appreciated converstion with you on this topic and mostly I appreciated not getting the bannana in the mouth type comments. LOL

    It is kind of hard to seperate Christianity in this topic....as the very basis of faith begins with creation. It is what makes me believe in God and salvation thur Jesus.........( I need to clarify...not faith in religion made of men... but faith in God). When I said the comments made me feel bad it is because I find a vast number of exJW's turn to other explainations out of bitterness... not choice. They want to wish God away when really they wanted to wish the organization away. (funny how that term "organization" reminds me of the mob)

    Romans 1:20............"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities....his eternal power and divine nature...have been clearly seen....being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

    All I can say is that I was a third generation JW. The good old pioneer since the time I was a teenager. I guess you can say I knew "all about" God but was clueless when it came to knowing Him personally. I was disfellowshiped in the early 80's and lived totally away from God and all forms of religion for 16 years. More honestly said....I didn't like God!!

    In 1996 I decided I wanted to get it right.... that is.... if there was a "right" somewhere to get. I spent over 3 years reading everything...including the bible. I read it all fresh.... without Watchtower garbage. At least the best I could. Broken records were hard to shut off. I went every direction..including evolution...and examing all kinds of religions. I even thought about keeping it swept under the rug...and when I died.. what would be..would be.

    My quest wasn't in vain. I am now a Christian. Not by name... but because it is in my heart. I understand how ex-JW's feel. I am one. There is hurt...betrayal.. guilt.. fear and a lost feeling that is hard to put into words. We blame God because we intwined the organization and Him as one and the same. There not! It is sort of like blaming your parents for living under a corupt government. It is inbred in us to want answers and for all intents and purposes.. it is about choice. The body is a shell... I believe there is a soul....and the outcome of my soul is rooted in believing that Jesus (not the org) forgave my sins because I believe and love Him. I have my free mind back..something I thought I'd never have again.

    Well.. anyway.. thanks....

    and as it goes... we can agree to disagree!!

    gold_morning

  • gold_morning
    gold_morning

    Funky...

    FYI

    I did read... have read...will continue to read and learn!! I'm not a jerk!! (smiling)

    I read everyone of SickofLies posts ( that were copy pasted too) ..and told him I appreciated the time he took to show me why he made his choices.

    I'm not expressing things I've read to convert anyone to anything. Just sharing things I've learned.......where I've been.....come from...and where I'm at now with my choice of faith in creation. Faith goes both ways. In all honesty.. it does take just as much faith to believe in evolution!!

    ................God?........evolution?..............your call.

    gold_morning

  • Share this

    Google+
    Pinterest
    Reddit