Confession me reply to your message RE Richie

Beep,Beep

I do not agree with your reading of "policy". I base this on personal experience on a couple of fronts.

1. I have yet to come across a single VERIFIABLE of a cover up. Yes I have read all sorts of claims but not one verifiable.

2. Personal involvement. I have had a close relative molested by that child's father. The child was taken to the doctor who confirmed that the molestation had occurred. The medical evidence thus became the "second witness". The man was disfellowshipped BEFORE he ever reached the courthouse.No one from the kingdom hall attempted to interfer in any way. The local body of elders supported the mother the entire time. Now before someone yells "new light" this occurred more than twenty years ago.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/110725/3.ashx

I have just reviewed the scan on this page from the misappropriated book. I see nothing there that would change my mind.

One note plainly has (Very Rare) at the end.

If the marginal notes ACTUALLY said what you all want them to then maybe there could be some justification.

Addessing the issue of Germany in WWII, knowing what we do now it's easy to say "I'd lie". Since the average German citizen was not aware of Hitler's intent to kill the Jews, not even most business men. Under those circumstances I would have said "Yes". Of course this is an unfair comparison due to the time that has passed.

About stealing, maybe I'm a victim of my upbringing but I do not believe it is acceptable to steal even to feed your family. There are other, legal ways to do so. I don't accept that there is no other way.

I believe that any injustice can be corrected without resorting to theft, lying or any other form of dishonesty. Using your example of the company dumping toxic chemicals, couldn't there be another way? Video the dumping maybe or maybe just tell someone in a position to do something about it? The irresponsible course is the "the ends justifies the means" course. If you steal once for a "good cause" what's to stop you from stealing when you will profit from it? Or lie when it serves your interests?

ozziepost

Beep,Beep:

You're a brave person! and I mean that as a compliment. In many ways i agree with you, especially the thought behind this;

I believe that any injustice can be corrected without resorting to theft, lying or any other form of dishonesty.

I'm not sure though that we can sweepingly say "any injustice can be corrected", maybe "any injustice may be corrected' would sound better to me. Still, "one wrong doesn't make a right" does seem appropriate.

Nevertheless the marginal notes in question are important for they show what that individual elder took to be the instruction he was receiving. Add that to the thousands upon thousands of other elders and you will see that there must be a problem with the collective actions of the elders - remember they're believing that they are acting correctly and obediently. never mind that they may have misunderstood those instructions.

The "very rarely' may seem a moot point, even if ungrammatical! However, if it was so unlikely, why on earth mention it and why would that elder have felt it so important to make a marginal note?

TV programs that have exposed this issue (the WTS' instructions to BOE) like the Sunday program in Australia have corroborative evidence that the WTS (now CCoJW) did instruct the elders to participate in a cover-up.

Still, I shall be interested in others' replies to your post.

Cheers, Ozzie

IP_SEC

I do not believe it is acceptable to steal even to feed your family.

I would say you are rather [edited] then. Human life is more important than things.

Kenneson

Can you tell me what legal avenues were available to the persons who "stole" food from stores in New Orleans in the aftermath of Katrina? Besides, anything that was perishable and not eaten relatively quickly spoiled. I say it was better to eat it than let it go to ruin. And the ones who ate it committed no sin. Are you familiar with Matt. 12:1-4? Do you think the corn was their private property?

Quotes

Beep, Beep said: " Yes I have read all sorts of claims but not one verifiable."

I would be happy to put you in touch with a victim, or perhaps the victims's father, and elder, who was part of the cover-up of the offending elder. As I stated on the radio, for thousands to hear, the victim confided in me: "Do you know what he did to me? If I had gone to the police, he (the offending elder) would be in jail right now."

And yes, I didn't call the police either. I let the elder's handle it (they forced the elder to stop down -- big deal). So yes, I am complicit in one cover up. I can give you whatever verification you want, just send me a Personal Message here at JWD.

As for the Nazis, and "no one knew" stuff; well, I remember reading in an Awake! mag about 10 years ago how, supposedly, the Golden Age mag had publised all about hitler and the death camps as early as the 1930s. So, which is it? Did no one know? Or is the recent Awake! claim correct, and WTS DID know, but chose to ignore it and are now pretending they didn't know? Kind of hard to choose, Beep Beep! Is WTS liars? Or complicit in a Genocide? (Hint, go with liars, people are less forgiving of genocide!)

~PM

daniel-p

Why do you feel the need to declare your personal morals from the rooftops? Do you need validation? Acceptance? Whatever the hell you wanna do or believe in, that's fine. I think most of us are just tired of arguing with you or trying to get you to have a more "balanced" view (not that our view is right either). If those morals give you a sense of comfort, stick with em. But I must warn you - they might fail you eventually.

Gary1914

The local body of elders supported the mother the entire time. Now before someone yells "new light" this occurred more than twenty years ago.
So what? There have always been elders brave enough to perform in an honorable way and to do the right thing. The truth is, though, that twenty years ago we were taught that to bring wrongdoing in the congregation to the attention of authorities and people in the community was to be avoided because it would bring reproach to jehovah's name. You can defend them all you want, but the facts remain the facts. Wrongdoing of all types was swept under the carpet so that the appearance would be that the organization was a clean one when nothing could have been further from the truth. Even though there were always professions to the contrary, wife swapping, alcholism, homosexuality, child abuse and other forms of depravity have a long history with this organization.

Just because YOU have not been able to verify these facts does not mean that they did not happen. It simply means that you have not been able to verify them.

Your stand on morality and lying is indeed admirable, even though I feel sorry for your starving wife and children if you would not steal food to save them. I certainly would and not think twice about it.

Unfortunately, your high moral view is not held by the Watchtower organization. They believe in lying and underhanded tactics in the name of protecting their religion. They believe in secret books and secret memos and secret meetings so that the brothers remain ignorant of what their true purpose is.

But then, of course, Jehovah's Witnesses are the Happiest People On Earth!

Confession

Just in case anyone wonders what Beep Beep is replying to...

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/111671/1951220/post.ashx#1951220

Stephanus

Just in case anyone wonders what Beep Beep is replying to...
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/111671/1951220/post.ashx#1951220

Yes, BeepBeep is using the time honoured troll tactic of starting a new thread, devoid of annoying context and well thought out arguments. "Pay attention to meeeeee! Meeeeeeeeeeee!!!!"

ozziepost

Just in case anyone wonders what Beep Beep is replying to...

I missed that - I should have realised but I thought the thread title was just plain bad English - hell, it is, isn't it??

Confession me reply to your message RE Richie

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