Anyone else in PUTERNUT's shoes? Despairing? COME TO US!

by AlmostAtheist 77 Replies latest jw friends

  • bikerchic

    It's been asked by several about a JWD suicide reach out and short of this thread becoming like Vincent---------goes undergound

    That thread was set up for those who were at that point where they couldn't talk about suicide but reached out for help in way of a song way back in the early days of JWD. I don't know the whole story but Seven does, maybe she'll tell the story if she's lurking, 'yo......Seven where are you?

    This thread could be a good one to stand on the forum for any who feel the need to post to it, just to talk and to be listen to or maybe Simon will come up with something else, something a little more private. I think it's a good idea.

  • Frannie Banannie
    Frannie Banannie
    I know you don't know me from Adam and I know I'm not the one to make a difference because you seek the admiration of someone else, but I will tell you you are not an embarrassment but a asset to us here on JWD. Your posts never get overlooked by me I always read them, sorry if I hardly ever comment back to you, my bad. Please never tire of the fight, please seek help, please reach out to others you are one dear lovely lady and never forget your value is greater than any meadow-muffin I've ever seen (lol, humor if you please).

    (((((Bikerchic))))) I don't seek anyone's admiration. The time for that is way in the past, but what I was doing was pulling up the morbid thoughts I've had in the past when I've been suicidal and presenting those thoughts to BT. It might help people to understand better just WHY someone would make that choice. Sometimes, it's HAS been a never-ending struggle for me. But that's over now.

    I've got to get back to answer BT's response, cause I think we had a "failure to communicate" going on there.

    You are such a sweetie patootie, Bikerchic. Don't worry about responding to my posts. I've learned to check the "views."


  • Frannie Banannie
    Frannie Banannie
    At some point you either say "Fuck it" and leave or you say "Fuck it" and stay. If you stay, there are resources; there are answers (not easy ones and certainly not always pleasant ones) but answers nonetheless. There are roads out. Not easy roads; many times they are full of pain. This life seems to be about action, muscles moving, and inertia seems to lead to sinking. Doing things, talking to others, meeting others, sharing stories seem to lead out of the darkness. Isolation seems to invoke the darkness sucking us in. I do not believe life is fair. We all have our own pain, a secret pain that is ours and no one else's. I believe, again forgive me for submitting a belief, that healing begins when we come together. We need each other. Our pain becomes magnified when we are isolated, lonely and sitting there brooding on our inner demons, allowing them to screech at us. As someone once said, "Anyone who says life is fair is selling something."

    But, if I may, one belief I have from this life is that we are defined by our choices. Ary chose to leave, as did Nina's father. I chose to stay. But now that I'm staying, it is my responsibility to fight, to struggle, and to fail almost daily, to reach my answers.

    Why should a person bother? For me it's because I want to live. Maybe it's just that simple, and just that difficult.

    What if there's more than one point where a person can opt to leave or stay, BT? What if one opts to stay, thinking maybe things will get better, but they just don't; things just keep on being incredibly difficult a true grind with no letup, pain, inadequacy, one failure after another and one realizes that this is the all their life is ever going to be.......and there's no one around to talk to, no friend to confide in? And the person reaches that point again and again and again, because it seems they're just going around in circles instead of moving forward and never accomplishing anything anymore? Why do you think Dr. Kevorkian is so popular with the geriatric set?

  • Calliope

    i'm with dave,

    pm me if you need to talk. don't get to the point of despair...

  • AlmostAtheist
    What if one opts to stay, thinking maybe things will get better, but they just don't; things just keep on being incredibly difficult a true grind with no letup, pain, inadequacy, one failure after another and one realizes that this is the all their life is ever going to be.......and there's no one around to talk to, no friend to confide in?

    Frannie, how valuable is it to have someone to talk to at this point? I remember things being worst when I was alone. They weren't any better when I was with people, but they FELT better. Not sure what the deal is there. I didn't want to be with people, but I felt better when I was.

    Hopefully we can help people on JWD at least not be so isolated.


  • BlackSwan of Memphis
    BlackSwan of Memphis

    Thought about it.

    A few years back, I think it was a little bit postpartum and then mega stress of having to live up to expectations from so many different ends.

    Got to a point where I decided to see a therapist.

    I called my mom for support and she talked me out of it.

    I was in tears. I went through it again about a year and a half ago and I think what got me through was knowing my kids needed me.

    Now, I think that even though I get incredibly lonely, not feeling like I have to work so hard to live up to these expectations to keep others happy has been a huge burden lifted off my shoulder.

    I worry about one of my sisters. She has expressed suicidal thoughts to me at times. The good thing is she finally got to a point where she went to the therapist and is on meds. The problem is, med insurance for her and her family isn't always stable due to their circumstances.

    When I read about Ary I swore to my husband, that if she ever took her life, I would take every last bit of anger that I had and pour it on the WTS because the expectations and the constant threat of disapproval/shunning is running people ragged. They are seriously, truly modern day Pharisees.


  • Billygoat

    ((((((((((Big Tex))))))))))

    I appreciate your viewpoint. And much of it is true. BUT...and no matter what, there's always a but...

    ...but, I disagree with some of what you said.

    But this is why it is absolutely imperative that someone who is depressed seek out others.

    Depression to me is a Monster. It is one of the evilest and most heartwrenching disorders I've ever suffered and seen others suffer. I'd rather have a physical affliction as I think then it wouldn't affect my heart so badly. It has claws that dig into your very soul and squeezes with such force that sometimes taking a breath means physical pain. Asking a severely (suicidally) depressed person to step out and seek others is like asking a mute to speak. Sometimes it just physically cannot happen! That's why it's so imperative that us as a community, as friends, as family, keep a close eye on EACH OTHER. IF we are close and in touch and Friends in the deepest sense of the word, then we'll be close enough to the situation to KNOW when the depression takes a turn for the worse. Perhaps I'm being too Pollyanna about this, but I think this has to be a collaboration of the community. Am I my brother's keeper? *shrug* Some may not agree with me, but yes, I think we are to "keep" an eye on those that can't do it for themselves. Does that mean a lot of work? Yes. Sometimes more than what we alone are capable of, thus we need to band together in order to do it.

    I believe that many times, a suicidal person believes they are doing others a favor by "leaving". Not once on both of my attempts had I just been thinking of myself. I was thinking of EVERYONE around me. My affairs were in order and I was "ready" as I could be. My attempts weren't even going to be messy, just falling asleep and never returning. My depression had taken its toll on my friends around me at that time and I knew it. I KNEW I was an emotional burden, thus I wanted to shorten their frustrations by getting rid of the problem.

    It is our obligation, our responsibility to do whatever we can to help them find their way out. Having said that, all we can do is offer a hand but the one depressed must want to find their way out.

    Yes! Sometimes the reason to live is the hand that is reaching out to them. I've suffered lately with my own depression in ways I haven't in years. It's debilitating emotionally and sometimes physically. The ONE and ONLY thing that keeps me from doing myself in, is knowing it would devastate my husband. Nothing personal about this community, but nobody here is as close as my Mozz is to me. I know my parents would be disappointed and angry, but I really don't care about their reactions. I know my in-laws would be terribly upset, but they would overcome. My friends at church and here would be upset as well, but it wouldn't stop them in their tracks. God would be disappointed as well, but I know He loves me and would understand my decision better than anyone. My husband? Now there is a different story. He is a gentle and tender spirit with his own demons to battle. Demons that I help him battle. If I were to leave in a self-destructive manner, I have no question that his own demons would return in full force, perhaps even overcoming him. Thus my reason for sticking around is HIM. I can't leave him. I don't know if he realizes that and I don't know if that's a good enough reason (for you readers) for me to continue living, but here I am. *checking pulse* Yep, still here.

    In my case I did not want to die; I wanted anything but to die. With Nina's father, he not only did not want to find a way out, he embraced death. In retrospect I believe he wanted to die for many years before he actually did it.

    Chris, I think in situations like this, especially older people, have considered a lot of alternatives and this is the only one within reach. And I think the answer behind it is simple: they're tired. Just plain tired of it all. Tired of the pain, tired of the fighting, tired of the empty platitudes that most people give, just down and out tired. And I don't blame them. IF that was the case with your FIL and with Ary, then I do not begrudge their choice. Like I said earlier to Dave, I am relieved for them. Being angry at them for "going" is like being mad at a terminally ill cancer patient that just wants to go in peace. It would be rather selfish of US to ask them to hang on for US.

    They're tired of the pain and don't have what it takes to overcome it, so why not let them go peacefully? I know you would have the tenderness to allow a terminally ill patient go in peace and dignity. I guess I don't see how some people with depression are any different. Sometimes depression is terminal.

    Just more of my thoughts...


  • Narkissos


    It's a big thing you started with this thread. I'm sure actions such as what you suggest can be helpful to many, and if I can help I'll do. No doubt this forum has already helped hundreds of people in despair. You never know what happens behind the screen.

    Forgive me though if I throw in a few disturbing thoughts. I don't believe they are right, for I don't believe there is any objective truth to compare them to and make them right or wrong. They are just mine at this stage.

    I do believe in a right to die. Not an objective right (there is no such thing I guess), only a right our love can grant to those who are most dear to us, before it happens (or not happens), or after it has happened (in the latter case it's a kind of forgiveness). Regardless of our pain.

    It is also a right to sadness and loneliness. And to symbolical enactments of death (it's incredible how much of religion is precisely about that when you think of it).

    Such a right to die I hold, paradoxically, as the beginning of freedom -- even though effective death is actually the end. Until we gain this right in our own mind we don't really own our life either.

    I hate the moralising speech about suicide as cowardice, escapism or selfishness -- although I can understand the "good intentions" behind it. Right or wrong, I hear much cowardice, escapism and selfishness behind this talk. It will perhaps save a few from the actual act, but you don't know how many it may cause to run even faster into it.

    Conscience is a heavy weight to bear. Each one of us bears it alone and we all bear it together. Solitary and solidary. The living and the dead. This has to be said, again and again. Not that it is objectively true. All the more, perhaps, because it is not objectively true.

    Regarding life as a series of "problems" with a series of "solutions" can work for many people to an extent. Ultimately though it doesn't, and each one of us has to face that.

  • Sunspot

    I have to say that I can totally relate to Andi's and Frannie's comments. In my case, I had burned some bridges and taken a chance with a person who I had sadly trusted against everyone's (my longtime friends) wishes.

    I HAD been through the maze of struggling and failing and struggling and failing again, and I could NOT SEE where things would ever get any better. I severed a relationship that I was supposed to end in marriage....but "he" was forever putting things off and the committment seemed futile. It was in name only...just to shut me up, I suppose. We were going to announce our wedding plans at his family's annual B-B-Q, and that day---I was told to just keep it "quiet" for a bit longer. (All MY friends and family had been told MONTHS earlier) and I gave him his walking papers that evening when we got home. It broke my heart---we had been together for three years.

    I soon got into a "rebound" relationship that ended very badly afer four intense months...and because I HAD burned all those bridges...I felt that I HAD no one to confide in or talk to. My parents were impossible to please and I had given up on them and THAT when I eloped to VT at 17 to get married to the local Fonzie-type bad boy. I was the poster child for bad decision making for several years running. Obviously, my reign didn't end---as I made the decision to be baptized as a JW in 1972.

    So after the latest failed attempt at "love", (1967), I holed up in my apartment and didn't eat or sleep for days on end and wandered around sobbing constantly...and finally decided I wanted OUT. Forever. I was physically and emotionally battered and exhausted. I never felt so totally alone in my life. In my mind, there WAS no other way out of this never-ending pain.

    From the depths of my soul, I know the engulfing and horrible feelings that being "in that place" puts your mind through. You honestly feel that you don't HAVE a choice. There is NO way to accurately describe this. By then, it's not a matter of right or just IS.


  • Frannie Banannie
    Frannie Banannie

    BIG TEX & ALMOSTATHIEST, what Billy Goat & Sunspot said in their last two posts on this thread.

    1. When in the deepest darkest depression, a person does not WANT to see or talk to anyone else and sometimes it IS the only choice left.

    2. When in the deepest darkest depression, it swallows a person whole and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or feels and right and wrong and taking responsibility can go commit an impossible act with themselves.

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