Anyone else in PUTERNUT's shoes? Despairing? COME TO US!

by AlmostAtheist 77 Replies latest jw friends

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    Andi I agree with you about depression. It's something I'm going to have to live with the rest of my life, one last little present from my loving parents.

    I believe that many times, a suicidal person believes they are doing others a favor by "leaving". Not once on both of my attempts had I just been thinking of myself. I was thinking of EVERYONE around me. My affairs were in order and I was "ready" as I could be. My attempts weren't even going to be messy, just falling asleep and never returning. My depression had taken its toll on my friends around me at that time and I knew it. I KNEW I was an emotional burden, thus I wanted to shorten their frustrations by getting rid of the problem.

    But see this is different than someone being tired, or ill. Depression changes thoughts, warps the way we view ourselves and the world around us. For example, I cannot look at your photos and not see someone who looks like Jabba the Hutt. I'll take your word (and Nina's) that it is otherwise, but I am incapable of seeing what you see. Cognitively I know this; logic and reason tell me that depression warps my self-image just as depression warped your view. You would not be doing anyone a favor by checking out. That is the evil of depression. And if you had succeeded, I would feel anything but relief for you. I would grieve the loss, as that is what it would be: a loss.

    I cannot be angry with anyone who is overcome as I know how hard a struggle it is. I feel sadness, disappointment and a little colder knowing how deadly the struggle really is.

    Chris, I think in situations like this, especially older people, have considered a lot of alternatives and this is the only one within reach. And I think the answer behind it is simple: they're tired. Just plain tired of it all. Tired of the pain, tired of the fighting, tired of the empty platitudes that most people give, just down and out tired

    See this is, to me at least, a different scenario than fighting and losing to depression. I agree with Narkissos strongly that we have the right to die. BUT (notice the deft backhand on my but) I believe that this right comes only with the understanding and agreement that we have our full mental faculties. If I'm dying of cancer, racked with pain, but my mind is clear and I choose to leave on my own terms then yes I should have that right. If (God forbid) Nina were dying and wanted to end her life, her way I would let her go. I would be sad yes, but relieved as well and just a little happy that she got to leave on her terms and on her timetable.

    But see the dynamic is totally different than a young man or woman in good health but whose mind is clouded with major depression. Their view is skewed. The behavior is different as is the reason. To end one's life when terminally ill serves a higher purpose; there is nothing more personal and private than our own death and to face death when we are ready as opposed to what some hospital or illness dictates does serve a higher purpose. Death from depression does not. It is a defeat, a loss and I cannot find it within myself to be relieved or even happy for someone who loses to the evil of depression. If they lose, there is no higher purpose served; nothing is accomplished. There is only the absence of pain and the waste of the potential that person had. There is only what-if's and if-only's.

    I hear what you, and Frannie are saying believe me I do. I've been there, tired and lonely and thoroughly beaten up. And I understand if someone just can't fight anymore. All I'm saying is in that situation, that is one that others can make a difference. The last thing I wanted to do when I was in that black hole was to be around others, especially if they were trying to "cheer" me up. But it does make a difference to say the words out loud, to hear yourself give the reasons why or express the level of pain to someone else. And not just once, but over and over and over. I've seen it in myself and with others.

    In Nina's father's case, he wasn't tired or sickly. He was 78, but in great health, financially secure and had a supportive family. But he was a screwed up unit. He was consumed with fear. He had issues in his past, but he was afraid to face it and he ran from them all of his life. That's what attracted him to the Witnesses: the idea of a magic solution; instant happiness with no effort. But some issues are like poison, and you can't run from them forever. That's what happened to Bill. And when he found out the Witnesses lied to him, that there would be no magic answer he was terrified and angry. So he turned it all inward on himself. I know exactly why he killed himself; he was afraid to live. He didn't care what his death did to others (in fact I strongly suspect if he had lived with us there would have been a murder/suicide situation).

    See I think the reasons for death, is not an simple answer. Humans are complex creatures; why we do the things we do are numerous and complex. I guess I'm just focused on death resulting from depression. I don't think we're our brother's keeper, we are all responsible for our own actions and lives. But if we see someone in distress don't we owe that person an effort to help them? If they make it out and choose to live instead of to die, they will have to do the majority of the work themselves, but they need support along the way; a listening ear, a place to vent, a time to heal.

    There is pain in this life, many times unfair pain. But I submit where there is life, there is hope. Life finds a way.

    Chris

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex
    What if there's more than one point where a person can opt to leave or stay, BT? What if one opts to stay, thinking maybe things will get better, but they just don't; things just keep on being incredibly difficult a true grind with no letup, pain, inadequacy, one failure after another and one realizes that this is the all their life is ever going to be.......and there's no one around to talk to, no friend to confide in? And the person reaches that point again and again and again, because it seems they're just going around in circles instead of moving forward and never accomplishing anything anymore? Why do you think Dr. Kevorkian is so popular with the geriatric set?

    I hear you Frannie, I really do. Jessica Tandy once said: "Life has a way of just beating the shit of you."

    Ultimately it's up to each of us. We are the sum total of our choices. I know what it's like to wake up and wonder if this was to be the last time.

    I chose to live. It's painful, embarassing, unrelentingly grinding me down, full of more failures than triumphs, but I'm still here. I saw the movie "Papillon" one day in the very worst of my depression. I identified my life with the lives of the prisoners on Devil's Island, but I was also struck by the character of Papillon who kept trying to escape. He failed again and again and was brutalized savagely. Finally he was isolated, a beaten, toothless old man who in one last desperate grasp at life, jumped off a cliff into the ocean and floated to life on a tiny raft. In the middle of the ocean, tossed and turned and sunburnt, starving and dehydrated he shook his fist at the sky and said, "Hey you Bastards! I'm still here."

    You ask what does someone do? I say find a reason to live. Andi found hers, I just told you mine.

    There are ways out. They're not easy, often filled with traps and more often it's two steps back for every step forward. And yet despite it all, I still say where there is life there is hope. Where there is hope there are possibilites.

    Some can't find a reason. Some don't have the strength. Some just don't want to try. I know that. I don't have all the answers, I just know what worked for me. It doesn't for everyone. It didn't for Nina's father and it probably won't for people you describe above. All I can tell you is at the end, at the very blackest part one must find a reason to live. If not there is only one alternative. And I would grieve that loss.

  • bikerchic
    bikerchic

    (((((((Chris, Andi, Sunspot, FrannieB)))))))

    You all are making good points! I think the real point is that it would be IMHO immoral to not reach out and help someone you know is hurting and suicidal! I for one could not live with another's life on my hands if they were to off themselves and I didn't do whatever I could to help talk them out of it.

    That said, the words of my sisters shrink comes to mind. "If she (speaking about my sister) does actually kill herself there is nothing you could have done to prevent it, her mind was made up and the circumstances came together. All you can do is let her know you care, listen and do whatever it takes to let her know you are there for her in the days, weeks, months before she goes on that downward spiral. And alert us the professionals who do know what to do if you are suspect she is determined to do it again."

    My sister is schizophrenic and has tried to kill herself many times. Her will to die is much stronger than her will to live. I totally think a lot of it has to do with being in that damn cult! Gerrrrr!!!!!

    It the final act, is really out of our hand but what we can do is be there for those who are thinking, feeling or talking about suicide. You spoke of being a burden to others, but did they really give up on you? Are they gone from your life or do they still interact with you and care about you? All those thoughts of being useless and a burden to others are in the sick person's mind, not in the mind of those who are trying to reach you. Some of us are strong so the weak will survive. Some of us were weak and have survived to be strong to help others. Those of us who have been there are able to understand better and help better because you can't bullshit us we know and we will do our best to help you get through a tough time.

  • belbab
    belbab

    Break, break, break,
    On thy cold gray stones, O Sea!
    And I would that my tongue could utter
    The thoughts that arise in me.

    I have read all the posts in this thread, and each and every one have sunk deep down within me. I am sorry I did not pay attention to this thread earlier, but I was on the way to post on other threads and was sidetracked into this one.

    I can relate to your thoughts to unfathomable depths. Forty years ago, less one,
    a certain man was swallowed up in the depths of despair. That winter, according to the press was the worst winter since 1907. If you could access police reports, which you can’t, they would say that the certain man was found in a snow bank, walletless, nameless, after all, he couldn’t bring reproach on Jeho’s name could he? If you could converse with members of that person’s community at that time, they would tell you, lightheartedly, that the individual had gone off the deep end, cracked up, gone bonkers, demonized.

    That person was rescued by some friends, stood upon his feet, but he was no longer the same person. He had found the enemy and that enemy was us. Several years later after being hunted down, by Splane and Associates he was thrown outside the camp.

    He had learned, experienced the black hole of depression, and came to the conclusion that depression was death and there is life after death, after depression. Nuff said about him.

    Fast forward to almost a decade ago. Belbab and his wife received a phone call in the middle of the night from a young university student across the water about 150 miles away. He had just climbed down from a chair, with a noose formed from his mountain climbing rope around his neck and he phoned. What brought him down from that chair, what robbed the grim reaper as he called it? It was a vestige of love for the living.

    Where is the young man at this hour, today? He is up on Mount Washington, a ski mountain learning avalanche rescue techniques. He belongs to the local search and rescue group. A few weeks earlier, he was up on the same mountain with others recovering a corpse of a man who had doused himself with gasoline and burnt himself to death. Some nights ago, he woke up shouting in terror, a corpse was sleeping beside him in bed.

    Yes there is life after death, after the death of depression and related mental disabilities. If you can believe it, there is life before this life and life after the dissolving of the body of this life. Even the life of the one we are mourning on this thread lives on, not just in our memories, but in the depths of our souls, our hearts. Each one of us, resonates to the anguish and sorrow of the departed one.

    Is there any practical thing we can do beyond acceptance and resignation? Some of you have suggested various helpful suggestions. Can I offer you a glimmer of hope?

    I have searched for these many years for answers. The Bible, scientific, psychology, medical books, life it self, etc, etc. Like Joseph in Egypt, I have been storing up the goods.

    Do you know that depression and other related maladies are not prevalent amongst the Inuit and Japanese people? Do you know why it is very prevalent in Americans? Do you know why post-partum depression exists?

    The answers to these questions concern a certain essential fatty acid. It is prevalent in wild fish. The essential fatty acids are components of omega 3, namely EPA and DHA. EPA is the more essential one.

    Rather than expound my own learning, let me refer you to two books written by two doctors of medical research.

    The first: The Madness of Adam and Eve, by David Horribin, MD.This book is a study of the rise of intelligence and creativity across the millennia of humanity, and his convincing evidence depends on diet, and that diet contains the essential acids mentioned above. The creativity of humanity arises, through the shamanistic ones, who we today designate as Schizophrenic.

    The second book: The Omega-3 Connection by Andrew L. Stoll, MD
    The Groundbreaking Omega-3 Antidepression Diet and Brain Program
    .

    Both these doctors have web sites. They can easily be found through Google.

    I obtained the books in our local public library. I intend to order my own copies. If any of you can’t gain access to them and do not have funds to order them, then I will lend you mine.

    As an added note, why do Jehovah’s Witnesses, have a surprisingly high rate of depression and similar maladies. One reason, I believe, is their stressful, pleasureless monotonous manipulated lives. They also, especially pioneers, do not live today with the necessary nutrients, but sacrifice their present to the Great Yahoo in the sky and ephemeral promises of some grassy, cow-shitless pasture in the future.

    There, I feel better.

    belbab

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist
    I hate the moralising speech about suicide as cowardice, escapism or selfishness -- although I can understand the "good intentions" behind it. Right or wrong, I hear much cowardice, escapism and selfishness behind this talk. It will perhaps save a few from the actual act, but you don't know how many it may cause to run even faster into it.

    Another brave post. My god, you people just aren't willing to tow the company line here, are you? You're all so... so... HUMAN!!!

    I agree, Nark. Suicide isn't [insert favorite adjective here]. There isn't a word to describe it, there's no neat little compartment to pack it away in.

    Nor is suicide a single thing. There are various types and motivations for it, as brought out by others. There are even "good" suicides. But there are also bad ones.

    Can we help prevent the bad ones? Can we help the people thinking about a good one, to be sure it really is?

    Thank you all so much for so thoroughly fleshing this out. This is a huge topic that one thread with one group of people will never fully consider. But we've done a hell of a job here. And it continues.

    Dave

  • Billygoat
    Billygoat

    Dave,

    In spite of the pain I've felt in the last several days, I really want to thank you for starting this discussion. It is difficult, but I realize after 4 pages of this, that we're all just sharing and debating...no flaming on this post and I love it!

    Do you know that depression and other related maladies are not prevalent amongst the Inuit and Japanese people? Do you know why it is very prevalent in Americans? Do you know why post-partum depression exists?

    The answers to these questions concern a certain essential fatty acid. It is prevalent in wild fish. The essential fatty acids are components of omega 3, namely EPA and DHA. EPA is the more essential one.

    Rather than expound my own learning, let me refer you to two books written by two doctors of medical research.

    The first: The Madness of Adam and Eve, by David Horribin, MD.This book is a study of the rise of intelligence and creativity across the millennia of humanity, and his convincing evidence depends on diet, and that diet contains the essential acids mentioned above. The creativity of humanity arises, through the shamanistic ones, who we today designate as Schizophrenic.

    The second book: The Omega-3 Connection by Andrew L. Stoll, MD


    The Groundbreaking Omega-3 Antidepression Diet and Brain Program
    .

    Both these doctors have web sites. They can easily be found through Google.

    I obtained the books in our local public library. I intend to order my own copies. If any of you can’t gain access to them and do not have funds to order them, then I will lend you mine.

    As an added note, why do Jehovah’s Witnesses, have a surprisingly high rate of depression and similar maladies. One reason, I believe, is their stressful, pleasureless monotonous manipulated lives. They also, especially pioneers, do not live today with the necessary nutrients, but sacrifice their present to the Great Yahoo in the sky and ephemeral promises of some grassy, cow-shitless pasture in the future.

    belbab,

    You address something I have long believed in: You are what you eat. I plan on looking into what you have to say above as I find it interesting personally. I struggle with a disorder called gluten-intolerance. My body does not process the gluten protein and I suffer symptoms whenever I ingest it. Some of them simple and common intolerance symptoms: headache, itching, foggy head, constipation or diarrhea. (Sorry for the graphicness there.) But one of the symptoms that REALLY hurts me is the depression. There is something about gluten that messes with my chemistry and makes me one of two things: a raging, angry maniac or severely suicidally depressed. I have had the good fortune of knowing about this malady and understanding what it does to me. But it is a very difficult diet to live with. Gluten is in everything from bread and any baked good to shampoo and soaps. A minor ingestion for me is typically not an issue. But if I ingest several things or have a meal that has a sauce that has gluten in it, I'm toast for at least a week. Last week I accidentally ingested gluten several times. Not too terrible in their individual instances, but because it happened several times, I've had major issues. And then this past week I had an entire meal with a sauce that had gluten and I didn't know about it. This past 10 days I've suffered greatly because of my lack of carefulness in my diet. This week and this discussion has reiterated to me what I've always known: Beware of what you eat!!!

    Scientists and doctors believe there are more people that suffer from gluten and other food intolerance than previously believed. It has been my gut feeling for awhile that if we were to do a study on depressed/suicidal patients, by taking gluten (or other allergy type foods) out of their system, they would find themselves not so depressed/suicidal. This is just my opinion, based on what I've learned from my gluten-intolerant community, but I have a feeling that there is something to this. (And to what you mentioned above.)

    I realize this is slightly off topic, but I wanted to comment on how I think you have a really good point above. I will look into what you have suggested above.

    Andi

  • Frannie Banannie
    Frannie Banannie

    BT, thank you for understanding.

    All those thoughts of being useless and a burden to others are in the sick person's mind, not in the mind of those who are trying to reach you.

    Bikerchic, this is the only point on which I can disagree with you. This isn't the imagination of a sick mind and I've seen enough to realize that it often IS in the mind of those helping a person or responsible for a person's welfare, particularly with the children of elderly parents. It doesn't take a sick imagination to conjure up someone coming and going where you live and never letting you know ahead of time when or where they're going (without you). Nor does it take a sick imagination to realize when you rarely get to go ANYWHERE with or without the other people in your family, and never where YOU want to go, that you more than likely have become a burden/an embarrassment to them. It's not difficult to realize when they sneak out of the house very quickly when you've positively let them know you want to go to the store or church or a movie, etc.

  • Robdar
    Robdar

    Hey, I'll be glad to lend a hand and an ear. Dave, I'm sendin you my cell number. If somebody needs it, pass it along. They can call me anytime. Day or night.

    Robyn

  • Rabbit
    Rabbit

    Dave,

    I'm glad you brought up this subject, far too often it's a 'taboo' subject. It makes some people nervous...they don't know what to say to people who have/had suicidal thoughts. The ones who do have these thoughts may be embarrassed and keep quiet...maybe worrying what others may think of them. Or they just don't care anymore, they feel impotent or unloved.

    Depression itself is a fickle beast, some like myself with major depression, don't need a reason to have an episode -- although there are triggers in every type. My daughter has what I do, plus bi-polar. She's trying her best to be a good Witness, I know something (we all do here) ...as a JW you can never be good enough or do enough. I fear, very much, that she will give up and I will be making a sad announcement. They are threatening to DF her. ( How blind is that ?!?! ) She cannot take the pressure that's being put on her to conform. She recently was forced to kick me out of her life by 'our' JW family. That's more pain and pressure on a young inexperienced woman. The cult I brought her up in is building a wall to keep me out. I've been just about the only one she could truly open up with...now that's gone.

    Andi, I am so glad you have the empathetic loving person in Mozz to help you thru these times. I had no idea gluten could cause or at least trigger depression. I was surprised about your depression, you are one of the most pleasant, kind and happy people I've met. You've hidden it well from people, I understand (I think) because I've tried to do the same.

    My good wife and I have different issues from our past, different baggage. Like you and Mozz and others here, we are able to help each other, because of our different strengths. That's an important reason (the very best) to fight for our lives...to be there to help each other.

    Andi

    I believe that many times, a suicidal person believes they are doing others a favor by "leaving". Not once on both of my attempts had I just been thinking of myself. I was thinking of EVERYONE around me. My affairs were in order and I was "ready" as I could be. My attempts weren't even going to be messy, just falling asleep and never returning

    When I attempted suicide several years ago, (once) your words fit my situation to a 'T'. In my case I was not 'thinking'...clearly anyway. I had barely managed to begin stopping what I had put into motion. I obviously succeeded. I had no idea how this would be used against me later or how deeply I'd hurt my children by trying 'leave life', leave them like that.

    "No man (or woman) is an island." ~ somebody said.

    In my case, what I did out of emotional pain...was very selfish. I was ready & willing to end my pain & suffering -- at the expense of giving pain, suffering and feelings of guilt to my loved ones. My being willing to hurt them like that -- hurt them the most. "How could you do that to us, Dad ?, they asked.

    I am not sure just what happens after death, no one can prove anything one way or the other. Perhaps if I had a religious "hope" of heaven, resurrection or reincarnation I might be more agreeable that Ari or others may "finally have peace of mind". But, since I don't know... I think I'd better act as tho' this life is all there is. I have to make this life work. I had an X very much like Ari's, I'm equally shunned by all of my children now...that takes away almost everything that keeps me wanting to live sometimes. But, like Andi, Cris and some lucky others, we have found soul mates who need our special help -- and we need theirs.

    Suicide can leave a trail of hurt and tears for the survivors, the guilty, as well as the innocent ones.

    We need look no farther than all the people here... who have been profoundly affected by Ari's suicide.

    Rabbit (bruised, cut, but, healing class)

  • bikerchic
    bikerchic

    Frannie maybe I didn't explain myself very well:

    Bikerchic, this is the only point on which I can disagree with you. This isn't the imagination of a sick mind and I've seen enough to realize that it often IS in the mind of those helping a person or responsible for a person's welfare, particularly with the children of elderly parents. It doesn't take a sick imagination to conjure up someone coming and going where you live and never letting you know ahead of time when or where they're going (without you). Nor does it take a sick imagination to realize when you rarely get to go ANYWHERE with or without the other people in your family, and never where YOU want to go, that you more than likely have become a burden/an embarrassment to them. It's not difficult to realize when they sneak out of the house very quickly when you've positively let them know you want to go to the store or church or a movie, etc.

    If I understand you what you are saying is that the caretakers are resentful of their task? I think I understand what you are saying but ya know at least they are doing what they can to take care of you, yes it maybe burdensome but I look at it this way; if and when the time comes for me to take care of my elderly mother or my mentally ill sister I will have to remember the years my mother took care of me when I was helpless as an infant doing most of the same things I would be doing to her and out of love. Is it a drag, yes I've had/raised five babies it's hard work, they went everywhere with me and most of the times they were an embarrassment and I had to sneak out of the house many times to go to a movie or shopping ect....but I did it out of love. Love transcends the rest of the crap you are going through period. I also figure I can endure almost anything knowing it's not forever, there is always light at the end of the tunnel.

    I still say it's in the mind of the sick one thinking they are a burden or maybe I'm just different? I can and will say as a person who contemplated suicide many times for more than half my life and who worked very hard to get to the point where I hardly ever, ever think of it as an escape, option or solution any more (yes you can get over it) as someone who has been on both sides of the issue I will say without any hesitation it is in the mind of the sick one, period! Stinking thinking, I know I've been there done that.

    Frannie does that make sense? I'm not too sure if my point is coming across very well or if I really understand yours but I am trying and basically in the long run it's all okay we can have different views and opinions I'm just expressing mine however clumsily I am at it. This is a serious subject and it goes deep into my soul as I've dealt with it most of my life either with myself, my siblings or my own children.

    ((((((Rabbit))))))

    Your words here are just too good to not re-post! I'm sure glad you are here today and telling this to us:

    When I attempted suicide several years ago, (once) your words fit my situation to a 'T'. In my case I was not 'thinking'...clearly anyway. I had barely managed to begin stopping what I had put into motion. I obviously succeeded. I had no idea how this would be used against me later or how deeply I'd hurt my children by trying 'leave life', leave them like that.

    "No man (or woman) is an island." ~ somebody said.

    In my case, what I did out of emotional pain...was very selfish. I was ready & willing to end my pain & suffering -- at the expense of giving pain, suffering and feelings of guilt to my loved ones. My being willing to hurt them like that -- hurt them the most. "How could you do that to us, Dad ?, they asked.

    I am not sure just what happens after death, no one can prove anything one way or the other. Perhaps if I had a religious "hope" of heaven, resurrection or reincarnation I might be more agreeable that Ari or others may "finally have peace of mind". But, since I don't know... I think I'd better act as tho' this life is all there is. I have to make this life work. I had an X very much like Ari's, I'm equally shunned by all of my children now...that takes away almost everything that keeps me wanting to live sometimes. But, like Andi, Cris and some lucky others, we have found soul mates who need our special help -- and we need theirs.

    Suicide can leave a trail of hurt and tears for the survivors, the guilty, as well as the innocent ones.

    We need look no farther than all the people here... who have been profoundly affected by Ari's suicide.

    When I attempted suicide several years ago, (once) your words fit my situation to a 'T'. In my case I was not 'thinking'...clearly anyway. I had barely managed to begin stopping what I had put into motion. I obviously succeeded. I had no idea how this would be used against me later or how deeply I'd hurt my children by trying 'leave life', leave them like that.

    "No man (or woman) is an island." ~ somebody said.

    In my case, what I did out of emotional pain...was very selfish. I was ready & willing to end my pain & suffering -- at the expense of giving pain, suffering and feelings of guilt to my loved ones. My being willing to hurt them like that -- hurt them the most. "How could you do that to us, Dad ?, they asked.

    I am not sure just what happens after death, no one can prove anything one way or the other. Perhaps if I had a religious "hope" of heaven, resurrection or reincarnation I might be more agreeable that Ari or others may "finally have peace of mind". But, since I don't know... I think I'd better act as tho' this life is all there is. I have to make this life work. I had an X very much like Ari's, I'm equally shunned by all of my children now...that takes away almost everything that keeps me wanting to live sometimes. But, like Andi, Cris and some lucky others, we have found soul mates who need our special help -- and we need theirs.

    Suicide can leave a trail of hurt and tears for the survivors, the guilty, as well as the innocent ones.

    We need look no farther than all the people here... who have been profoundly affected by Ari's suicide.

    Rabbit (bruised, cut, but, healing class)

    Thanks man for sharing that, it really touched me.

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