Real 'BIG' news WTS sued biggie worker compensation

by DannyHaszard 210 Replies latest watchtower scandals

• 

  Oroborus21

  hey West, I think you might be right about me being wrong on the entity/org question. It doesn't change things too much though since the first question would still be is this person a member of a religious order? and then the second issue would be whether what they were doing is work related thus making them an employee. Upton claims herself according to the story to be a Witness then and now, so I still don't understand how that first question could be bypassed by the judge and wish the reporters had given a better summary. I will be curious to see what happens with why Bethelites would not be exempt from the WC system and think the panel will differ with the judge.

  But I still come back to what seems to be the bottom line as far as Worker's Comp goes which is that imposition of it on the WTS would not amount to much pain for it.

  I think Gary B might be on to something. If the relationship is defined as a employer/employee relationship in this context then that might open up all kinds of cans of worms in other areas where there are laws both fed and state which deal with such a relationship. We could have Bethelites filing sexual harassment or religious bias claims with the EEOC or FEHA after being asked to leave, etc. who knows? Such things are probably a stretch for these at-will religious volunteers but one never knows for certain.

  -Eduardo
• 

  West70

  David:
  
  You are the second person who has made a remark about my own "worst nightmare" remark, and both you and the other poster did not read, or at least did not comprehend, what I was saying.
  
  My "worst nightmare" remark was made in regard to WBTS Legal's having to appear before a WCL Judge, where they have little if any clout (as opposed to appearances in regular civil courts before civil judges subject to certain precedents).
  
  Just ask any Attorney who represents insurance companies before such.
  
  
  
  
  
  However, you still don't "get it" with regard to the disruptive effect that the introduction of WC Coverage, along with its associated rules, regulations etc, would have on the relationship between Bethelites and the "Faithful and Discreet Slave".
  
  First, the FDS "gets it", because this Upton case was either the primary motivating factor, or at a minimum "the final straw", behind the ongoing "layoffs". (Just like every "negative" thing Brooklyn does - they have a "better excuse" for their decisions.)
  
  Due to legal considerations, most employers refuse to publicly acknowledge such, BUT "WC Insurance claims/issues" (and sometimes Health Insurance) is/are the most common sources of problems between employers and employees.
  
  
  Although I disagree with most of the criticisms leveled at you personally in some of your prior threads/posts, I have noticed one valid criticism leveled at your posts. That is, you simply do not seem to have a good "feel" for the "culture" or "workings" of JWs or the Borg. I believe you have stated that you were reared JW. If so, your "rearing" was evidently atypical, because you missed out on essential parts of JWism somewhere. This is an observation from more than one person here. Please take such as constructive criticism. We need you in this fight.
  
  Now, with regard to this WC ruling bleeding over into other areas - employment law, OSHA (mentioned by others), tax law, etc. As an attorney, you know that one of the first things you learned in law school was that what applies in one branch of the law does not necessarily apply in another branch.
  
  WC law has the most inclusive definition of an "employee" of all branches - even tax law. WC Boards go out of their way to rule that an injured person is an "employee" so as to fulfill their "mission" to make certain injured persons have remedies. Thus, if this ruling is upheld, it will not serve as a precedent over at IRS, Labor Dept, etc.
  
  However, what does sometimes happen is that the publicity from such causes those other folks to take a fresh look at their own past decisions, ...
• 

  AuldSoul

  In the main, I agree with your assessment West70.

  I think the biggest single factor in this is that everyone who comes to know of it is going to be influenced to view Bethel as at least a little more secular in nature. Bethelites who start thinking that way aren't far from showing their "cheap" side...those of you who've been to Bethel know what I'm talking about.

  When you have spent 15 years becoming used to going to commisary for off-brand toiletries, to donated for your latest fashions, not worrying about when your next meal will come, wondering whether you can pay next month's utility bill, and in some cases not ever having to interact with anyone outside the Bethel compound, facing the prospect of living in the real world is not very appealing.

  When you have been trying to cope in the real world with your missing hand that you lost or nerve damage you acquired while at Bethel...if you start viewing Bethel as secular...

  The lower-level culture of the place is changing. Quickly. The top level culture isn't changing at all.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
• 

  West70

  AS:
  
  Keep thinking on this, and I believe you will move even closer to my position.
  
  I'm having a difficult time believing more people here don't fully understand what I'm saying about the disruptive impact that the introduction of WC rules, reds, etc would have on the FDS-Bethelite relationship.
  
  Currently, the FDS has complete and total say-so over Bethel and the lives of Bethelites. The FDS is for all intents GOD.
  
  Do you really think the FDS would allow ANY other "authority" to intrude on that relationship?
  
  Especially, an "authority" that rules and overrules that of the FDS?
  
  Especially, an "authority" that is "worldly"?
  
  NO WAY will the FDS allow that to happen.
  
  This UPTON situation has been going on for several years now. The FDS and LEGAL have already been "reacting" in anticipation of losing this fight.
  
  How many "non-clerical" activities have already been eliminated over the past 3 or 4 years? WHY? To reduce the number of "volunteers" whose "activities" might be place them in the "employee" category for "WC purposes". If the report of the 25% cut is true, this only would be the latest reaction. There may be even more depending on what happens next at the WC Board and maye then the Courts.
  
  I believe that Brooklyn still believes that even if it loses this Appeal it can still avoid being brought under WC if it eliminates most or all "non-clerical" functions and volunteers.
  
  This is BIG NEWS, and it will continue to be BIG NEWS for several months regardless of how good or bad it turns out for the WBTS.
• 

  AuldSoul

  West70,

  If by FDS you mean GB, I agree. You've sold me.

  That said, how do we capitalize on this? How do we influence that new schizm to deepen? I think this schizm itself should be moved on while still fresh in the minds and before the Bethel ejections happen, yes?

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
• 

  YoursChelbie

  
  From: http://www.wcb.state.ny.us/content/main/fraud/fraudbrochure.htm
  
  

  Employers who misclassify their employees or payroll are committing fraud.
  
  Employer Fraud
  Occurs when an employer knowingly misrepresents the truth in order to avoid, deny or obtain compensation on behalf of employees, or knowingly lies about entitlement to benefits to discourage an injured employee from pursuing a claim. Occurs when an employer knowingly lies in order to obtain a workers’ compensation insurance policy at less than the proper premium rate.
  Examples of Employer Fraud:
  Lying about the job risk or exposure by: underreporting payroll; misclassifying payroll; or lying about company ownership to avoid a higher experience modification.
  Telling an employee that workers’ compensation benefits are only available if he or she has been employed for six months or more.
  Reporting Fraud
  
  
  Any claims of suspected workers' compensation fraud should be referred to the Workers' Compensation Fraud Inspector General for investigation and development of the appropriate case for prosecution by the State Attorney General's Office, or local District Attorneys.
  The Fraud Inspector General may be contacted by writing to:
  
  Office of the Fraud Inspector General
  New York State Workers’ Compensation Board
  20 Park St.
  Albany, NY 12207 518-473-4839

  One example of fraud

  Workers' Comp Board & Insurance Dept. Announce

  Workers' Compensation Board Chairman Robert R. Snashall and New York State Superintendent of Insurance Gregory V. Serio announced the arrests of five employers on fraud charges. The employers, all of whom operate landscaping businesses, are charged with felony falsifying business records and felony workers' compensation fraud. [.....]

  Under law, all business owners who have employees are required to secure insurance to protect workers injured on the job.

  Board Chairman Snashall said, "This crime is particularly offensive because these employers were willing to ignore the law at the expense of injured workers. The Governor has made it clear. If you flaunt the law you will pay a price. Sooner or later unscrupulous people will learn that it's just not worth it."

  "By pooling the resources and expertise of the Department's Frauds Bureau with the Rockland County District Attorney's office, the State Workers Compensation Fraud Inspector General and the Clarkstown Police Department, we have prevented these criminals from continuing to defraud the workers compensation system," said Superintendent of Insurance Gregory V. Serio. "We remain committed to finding and prosecuting fraudsters like those arrested today, whose actions erode a vital workplace protection that was created for the benefit of all workers."

  In 1996, Governor George E. Pataki created the Office of Fraud Inspector General and elevated workers' compensation fraud to an e-felony. The charges carry a possible prison term of up to 4 years, fines and restitution. Workers' injured while working for an uninsured employer are entitled to benefits paid through the Uninsured Employers Fund which is maintained by the Workers' Compensation Board and financed through a surcharge added to the premiums paid by all of New York's employers.

  Workers' Compensation Fraud Inspector General John H. Burgher said, "Employers who evade their responsibility to protect injured workers shift their liability onto the backs of 's law abiding employers

  From: http://www.wcb.state.ny.us/content/main/PressRe/5arrests.htm

  
  
  
• 

  West70

  AS:
  
  This situation got where it is at without any outside help, or for that matter, without it even being known about until this news article was published.
  
  As I noted in one of my first posts to this thread, I'm not even sure that publicizing the Upton case is such a good idea.
  
  The further this goes up the ladder the more likelihood the decision will apply to other religious orgs. WBTS probably has already notified them about this case in the hope that other religious orgs will do whatever they can behind the scenes to bring pressure to bear on the WC Board.
  
  Again, I believe the downsizing already done over the past 3 or 4 years has been driven by his pending case. Not that there were not other good reasons to do so, but the WBTS moves slowly- even when something is in their best interest. Whatever further changes in the ops comes from all this will probably have as many positives as negatives. This has and will continue to make an old inefficient organization leaner and meaner.
  
  Even if part (WatchTower Farm) of the WBTS's ops are forced under WC, the predicted change in the Bethelite-GB/FDS relationship will take time to produce fruit.
  
  If the large staff reduction is real, and such continues, then some of those folks will probably write the next generation of WBTS exposes.
  
  If ther have ideas, I simply would suggest that such be thought out carefully before implemented, so that such do not turn out to help rather than hurt the Borg. Unfortunately, some XJWs have proven themselves to be rather shortsighted about their anti-activities, which turn out to help the WBTS by making the XJW community look uneducated and ignorant in certain areas; while others make XJWs look like disgruntled nuts.
• 

  DannyHaszard

  Danny sez,'Thanks to Barbara Anderson for my inspiration'
• 

  garybuss

  Years ago I heard the Society hired an outside business consultant to come in and look at everything and submit an efficiency strategy business plan. I belive the split of the corporations, the Wallkill project, the new faster presses, the sale of unneeded assets, the once a month Awake! magazine, the elimination of most subscriptions, and the reassigning of personnel is the result of that plan. I expect we are midstream in that plan.
  
  I think critics like me aren't even a gnat on this monster's ass. This is a business doing business.
  
  
  
• 

  outoftheorg

  Well I just don't know what to think or believe. Lots of opinions and wishes, but when you come down to it, we just don't know how this will end or what may develop. Even though I would love to see this severely upset the wbts.

  I doubt that this court decision, even if it survives appeal will have any huge effect on the wbts.

  But I do believe that the wbts is facing the wrath of enough people, that we may see more and more court trials against them. If this happens I hope that the wbts will slowly bleed out and become completely insignificant and fade away.

  This may take a few or many years. Lets just watch and wait and educate as many non jw's or jw's about the wbts.

  Do not let the self proclaimed legal expert cause you too much frustration.

  Outoftheorg