What Are Most JWs Disillusioned Over?

by minimus 60 Replies latest jw friends

  • Check_Your_Premises
    Check_Your_Premises

    Hey Terry, welcome back.

    Are there only costs to Christianity? Are there NO benefits?

    Do you think ALL minds are capable of coming up with an athiestic system of ethics?

    Beyond the individual level, what about the macro level. How does the belief in meaning beyond what we can arrive with ourselves as a starting point, effect societies as a whole. Without a higher purpose for our existence, we have only our existence. We only have our life. The funny thing is how wretched, nihilistic, and cowardly a man with nothing he can care about beyond his own skin can become. We see it now in the post-modern Western world, as it can't even muster enough energy to defend itself from a mindless, backward, 12th century caliphate. It's only weapon, and the only one it needs is that it believes in something and it's enemy does not.

    This is an excerpt from Wretchard the cat at http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/

    He discusses the issue from the perspective of modern liberalism, but you could replace athiesm with liberalism and the excerpt would hold (since athiesm is a tenet of modern liberalism)

    Tuesday, January 03, 2006

    Kimball and Steyn on the end of the West

    Two essays in the New Criterion talk about the West almost in the past tense. Roger Kimball's After the suicide of the West pronounces his post-mortem: a civilization suicided from despair; death from want of a reason to live. The contradiction within liberalism -- within multiculturalism -- Kimball argues, is that it unwilling to believe in anything definite, even in itself.

    ... an essay called “The Self-Poisoning of the Open Society,” ... dilates on this basic antinomy of liberalism. Liberalism implies openness to other points of view, even ... those points of view whose success would destroy liberalism. But tolerance to those points of view is a prescription for suicide. ... As Robert Frost once put it, a liberal is someone who refuses to take his own part in an argument.

    And having emptied life of belief, liberalism has not coincidentally also emptied it of meaning. Kimball quotes Douglas Murray to evoke the atmosphere of a civilization partying frenetically on the brink of black nothingness.

    It may be no sin -- may indeed be one of our society’s most appealing traits -- that we love life. But the scales, as in so many things, have tipped to an extreme. From seeing so much for which we would live, people in our society now see fewer and fewer causes for which they would die. We have passed to a point where prolongation is all. We have become like the parents of Admetos in Euripides’ Alcestis -- "walking cadavers," unwilling to give up the few remaining days (in Europe’s case, of its peace dividend) even if only by doing so can any generational future be assured.

    Liberalism's first step is to render the past, with its ties to memory and tradition, despicable and valueless. From there it inevitably proceeds to make the future futile. The "me" generation is liberated not only from its myths but also from its dreams. Kimball cites James Burnham. Modern liberalism, Burnham writes:

    does not offer ordinary men compelling motives for personal suffering, sacrifice, and death. There is no tragic dimension in its picture of the good life. Men become willing to endure, sacrifice, and die for God, for family, king, honor, country, from a sense of absolute duty or an exalted vision of the meaning of history… . And it is precisely these ideas and institutions that liberalism has criticized, attacked, and in part overthrown as superstitious, archaic, reactionary, and irrational. In their place liberalism proposes a set of pale and bloodless abstractions—pale and bloodless for the very reason that they have no roots in the past, in deep feeling and in suffering. Except for mercenaries, saints, and neurotics, no one is willing to sacrifice and die for progressive education, medicare, humanity in the abstract, the United Nations, and a ten percent rise in Social Security payments.

    From Kimball's perspective the contest between Islam and liberal civilization is not simply between East and West, but between the living and the dying.

    How then should we live? Why do we keep bumping into this wall of needing meaning in our life if it is in fact reality that our life has no meaning? Have we yet to evolve to where we accept the meaningless of our existence?

    Again, Terry, welcome back.

    CYP

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    My best friend was a neighbor boy who was in third grade when I started first grade in country school. He was raised in a mainstream Christian environment. Later he attended the Baptist church up the street. He associated with me all through school and invited me to anything he had going. I went on my first real date with his girlfriend's girlfriend with him driving the car.

    Witness kids would have things, games, and parties and I might hear about them weeks afterwards. I didn't really get Witness related invitations until I was out of high school and started playing my guitar. Later my neighbor friend and I worked together after we both had families. He sat and talked with me for half a day when my parents yelled at me and slammed their door and confirmed their shunning.

    When my son was in the hospital and I was really worried, my friend came over and spent a couple hours with me a couple times a week for that whole winter.

    The Witnesses taught that Jehooova is going to murder my friend because he doesn't read their books. I didn't buy it when I was a kid and I think it was a terrible thing to judge good non Witness people like my friend. Last year he got a very fast liver cancer and he died the Saturday after Thanksgiving in 2004. It was a loss I felt to my toes. I still feel it. I helped carry him to his grave and I stood there past the time to leave. He was the last person still alive that knew me when I was 6 years old. His family called me to come over when he was in his last coma so I could say goodbye. I stayed by his bed alone and watched him breathe. We stayed friends for 54 years.

    Jehovah's Witnesses judged and condemned good people who's only crime was not being Witnesses. Jehovah's Witnesses failed to deliver on every single promise they ever made me. Then they shunned and snubbed me because I didn't like it. Jehovah's Witnesses make hate a religion.


  • Terry
    Terry
    Hey Terry, welcome back.

    Are there only costs to Christianity? Are there NO benefits?

    Do you think ALL minds are capable of coming up with an athiestic system of ethics?

    Beyond the individual level, what about the macro level. How does the belief in meaning beyond what we can arrive with ourselves as a starting point, effect societies as a whole. Without a higher purpose for our existence, we have only our existence. We only have our life. The funny thing is how wretched, nihilistic, and cowardly a man with nothing he can care about beyond his own skin can become. We see it now in the post-modern Western world, as it can't even muster enough energy to defend itself from a mindless, backward, 12th century caliphate. It's only weapon, and the only one it needs is that it believes in something and it's enemy does not.

    Hi there! Thanks.

    Let us substitute a word in your question,shall we?

    You ask: "Are there only costs to Christianity? Are there NO benefits?

    Substitute the word: delusions for the word Christianity

    It would read: "Are there only costs to delusions? Are there No benefits?

    Suddenly, the answer becomes clearer because Christianity is a substitute for real life and a delusional one at best. Pretending does not make your life better on a meaningful level because you are fooling yourself and often fooling others into a couterfeit status quo. The counterfeit existence will bump hard into reality ever so often and inexplicable abrasions will take you down. If you are ill and a Christian Scientist what do you do? Do you treat the illness as something REAL? No, you wish away into an illusion that can be treated by prayer. This clearly covers much of mainstream Christian thinking too in other venues. But, my point is a real one. If you choose to deal with what you are REALLY dealing with in a genuine way you increase your prospects for success.

    Now, as to your other question about "MEANING" in everyday life.

    Life requires survival which requires an active and rational assessment of what it takes to cope with everyday living. Beyond mere survival there is the decision of what kind of life you desire for yourself which leads to making careful decisions. What education do you need? What is your earning potential? What investments are necessary? You build your life by realizing it requires building. The less you leave to chance (or mystical forces) the more hands-on effect you have on making it turn out the way you envision it. Life is about living. The quality of your life is about your values. Your values are about your very nature which comes out of every decision you make good or ill. Practicing hygiene lessens your chances for infection and so does hygienic thinking increase your capacity for a healthy decision process. Eating well increases your opportunity for health which requires you take the trouble to find out what healh is.

    Life is a learning process. You have to guard yourself from all the phoney crap pretending to be knowledge that is as fake as waxed fruit.

    You wouldn't build your dream home out of plaster of Paris and silly putty and neither should you build your thoughts with pseudo-science and urban legend.

    Life is what we CHOOSE to make it into by every act we create. We must develop our knowledge so that our tastes will develop and our conversency with excellence goes beyond the theoretical. We must learn to compete and succeed. Further, we must learn how to learn from our failures.

    The end of our life comes from what we have done, who we have chosen for friends, how we spent our time and money and how well we cared for the simplicity of fact-based thinking. Things don't just happen and things don't just work out for the best. We have to make things happen and have the skill to push it to the limits of excellence.

    Sitting on our mental butt and daydreaming of paradise didn't do it for us when we were Jehovah's sappy happy people and the result of that venue won't work no matter how hard the current crop of daydream believers wish for it.

    The only alternative to failure, depression, misery and chaos is an active, thinking rational mind that is filled with so much fact-based resource that our choices will reflect a taste for real living above mere humdrum existence.

    The lives of religious people are often filled with profound disconnect from reality and depression is quite common. They try to "solve" this by plunging into their delusions even deeper like struggling in quicksand.

    Meaning in life is a matter of informed choice. The information has to be real, however.

    Terry

  • FairMind
    FairMind

    who wants to bring somebody into a place that is so filled with a lack of love

    So true, and into an organization that treats its’ members as “good for nothing slaves” and lies to them.

    Are there only costs to Christianity? Are there NO benefits?

    There are benefits! I don’t smoke, get drunk or take drugs. I work for my employer with a whole soul. The benefits? I’m alive, in good health and earn a comfortable living. This is not how it would have been for me without Christianity.

    Garybuss, you have a way with words that drives the truth home.

  • Check_Your_Premises
    Check_Your_Premises

    Thanks Terry

    CYP

  • ColdRedRain
    ColdRedRain

    The thing that disillusions most JW's is the fact that the religion's legalistic. Every one of my friends left the troof because of the stupid, redundant or just plain weird rules, but ony I was smart enough to try to look deeper into the rabbit hole to see why the rules were there.

  • calico
    calico

    Because your problems are real world (reality) problems and cannot be solved by make-believe and wishful thinking and mental constructs of a fake world where angels and other invisible activists are running things.

    I love this statement!

  • calico
    calico

    Disillusionment comes from having ILLUSIONS in the first place.

    I love this one, too

  • evergreen
    evergreen
    I thought that as time passed I'd feel more joy, not less and that I'd learn to enjoy going out in service and helping the poor lost souls in the world to find true peace and security. ; Didn't happen. ; I got to feeling more and more harassed, more and more guilt-ridden, and more and more like I had to make some major excuses for my dear "brothers" and "sisters" in the congo.

    Similiar along the above lines. I just felt my life was taken up with so many meetings, field service, endless boring talks, endless thursday meetings about how to place magazines.

    Also had nagging doubts about many things, dates, the blood issue, Michael the arc angel being Jesus?? etc etc

    I could go on but it simply bores me thinking about it.

  • Honesty
    Honesty
    What Are Most JWs Disillusioned Over?

    Who is really behind the curtain.

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