by Maximus 141 Replies latest jw friends
"I won't go through all the Talmudic stuff on when a child is DFd;..."
Maximus, please do. I'd like to "see" what it says verbatim. Such fond memories all those years ago...I'd like to reminiese a bit. I forget just what the exact words were. Please share them, again.
Sincerely, sKally (dfed 24years now klass)
Hello Maximus,
Four years ago I was privy to a Branch level meeting in a smaller European Country where this issue was discussed and I can confirm that the figures you note are accurate as a world average within a few percentage points.
I can also add that despite pressure being heaped on the CO's to reduce this figure, most CO's felt powerless to do anything about the situation, one uttering cynically to me after a dose or two of the 'yellow peril', 'what do they expect me to do about it, no-one listens to us anymore anyway'. An interesting aside is the average figure of young ones raised in the WTS who face the six-eyed circus ( Judicial Committee ) before the age of 21, which is, if my memory serves me well is 57%, this obviously does not include the non-reporters.
Certainly the exodus leaving the WTS the past few years has been younger ones raised within the religion. My experience is that very few younger people leave for idealogical reasons, that is the territory of the medium-long termers, but they leave simply because they are bored senseless by the endless roundabout of sterile meetings, hosted by a group of tired pastel shaded men, who if the truth were known would rather be out sailing and screaming into the wind; or because they want to live before they die. Many leave never to return after the 'reproof' or DF proclamation at the meetings, some do try to live double lives Max, but my experience is that most do not even bother to hide their intent any longer. While I think that Marvins figure of 99% leading double lives is a little wild, I would certainly put the figure at around 70%.
Please note the numbers of Judicial Committees that I was involved with during the following years :
1995: 8; 1996: 7; 1997: 12; 1998: 16; 1999: 18; 2000: 20. This is in three congregations averaging 85 publishers.
An increasing trend that seems to have been borne out by many congregations that I have discussed this situation with. About 78% of committees involved those raised in the Truth and under 21 years of age, 60% of these have left the WTS and have not returned.
As for you mentioning that your report was saving the FDS work, don't you believe it Max, they are well aware of this disaster and as ever are frenetically trying to find as many scapegoats as possible who are not GB shaped to heap the blame upon! Smarting back-sides in Paris last week.
My best to you -- HS
Max,
Oops! Of course. One out of eight STAYS was what I meant. Sorry.
S4
This information is so true. About half of the children in my former congregation left, never to return when they became adults. I suppose that would include me now. What does not surprise me now, but it did when I was going there is, elder's children are mostly the ones doing the leaving. Perhaps they see the hypocracy more than I did. I wish I could back up this statement with some facts.
"Hand me that whiskey, I need to consult the spirit."-J.F. Rutherford
G'day hillary_step,
Interesting points you raise.
"Smarting back-sides in Paris last week" - guess the Brooklyn/Patterson boys will be getting Frequent Flyer points as they've got a lot of declining branches to visit!
Australia is no different. Max Lloyd's committee here will have to be 'explaining' too, I guess.
Cheers,
Ozzie
"Evil is the absence of empathy"
Movie (2000), Nuremberg
I trust more of you are getting the picture of pressure being exerted from the top. "Put that finger in the dike, gentlemen!"
Can you picture a CO with brains reading these articles? Getting blamed for not whipping the flock into shape?
Brrrrrrrrr.
Good point about the number facing judicial committees, HS--I think that percentage has actually grown larger. That's likely why the emphasis on reaching out to the "prodigal child." (What perfect smiles there are on the faces of the elder and his wife who shake the young man's hand and grab his elbow! Now how do they get him back into the hall?)
Not sure what you mean about saving them work. At least one GB member read my letters, because Ray cites them in his book, tactfully omitting my name so as to prevent cries of heresy even though the Society ASKED me to write honestly.
I love the wonderful well-turned Watchtowerese: "Should not parents, then, use every Scriptural method possible to help their prodigal minor come to his senses?"
What an awkward, positively wooden statement!
" ... Just as many hardened rebels have responded to Jehovah's loving invitation to come back, your prodigal son or daughter may well return to God's protective flock."
Don't hold your breath, Ted.
Maximus
Thanks for the interesting thread guys. I would have to agree that the numbers presented seem pretty accurate with what i've seen where I live.
I was wondering though, how exactly the Society can determine these percentages considering many young persons are not disfellowshipped but just cease involvement. The numbers seem accurate, but how are they arrived at?
I have been perplexed lately at the amount of young ones who leave, but then make the "comeback". I would say very few of those who leave do so because they disagree with the doctrines. Many return and most want to return or feel that the should return at a future date.
As for those who remain in the religion, most lead double-lives. Those with any interest in "spiritual goals" appears to be at an all time low with more young ones pursuing some sort of additional education.
If the Society had any brains, they would be reshaping the religion to appeal to these young ones instead of driving them away with comments about family studies on meeting nights. How exactly does a family do that? When do these kids do their homework?
Path
Howdy,
My husband (56) was raised by 2nd generation jw's. Good people in a small community. He and his brother's only friends were when they went to assemblies (not many kids back then.) He definitely had a double life, his brother - no. My husband's always been labeled "spiritually weak, stiff necked, etc." And true - he fought the arrangement his whole life, and basically did what he wanted, just quietly in other towns. His brother is a long-time elder. None of either of their grown kids are in the WTBTS (5).
Also, the kids that they did grow up with - most have been df'd, reinstated, df'd, removed, left, etc. His brother is a rare bird.
The exodus has been going on for a long time. The ones who stayed this long are beginning to realize they've given their lives away for the most part.....and have no retirement.....and are getting old and tired.
The kids are keener in judgement - "this doesn't make any sense." Good for them.
waiting
I think that kids being kids, they want to explore life. When you grow up with too many rules, you can tend to be more rebellious. And it just makes some young people all the more curious. Kids, as well as adults need balance in their lives. As it is, the JW kids aren't allowed to do much of anything. Everything is wrong. Music is all wrong, Dress is all wrong, cong. gatherings so strictly scrutinized, it takes all joy out of it for everyone. Yes, we do need guidelines and rules within reason. Please, by all means, use common sense when picking associates. This is all good advice. But, it seems JW kids arent't allowed to be spontaneous. Everything is TOO regulated.
I like the way you think, hillary_step ... facts and figures, hard numbers. I like those. Facts are stubborn little things.
An interesting aside is the average figure of young ones raised in the WTS who face the six-eyed circus (Judicial Committee) before the age of 21, which is, if my memory serves me well is 57%, this obviously does not include the non-reporters.
Sounds a little low. It's been a while since I've really thought about it, but nearly every Witness kid that I've met in the last twenty years has more or less left the org. Imo, the trend will continue... my step-son (unbaptized, high school senior) hangs with elders kids, and they can have some fun. They think they are slick, that they are pulling a fast one, but I was young once. I don't say a word.
... they leave because they are bored senseless by the endless roundabout of sterile meetings, hosted by a group of tired pastel shaded men, who if the truth were known would rather be out sailing and screaming into the wind
In other words, "like their parents," who'd rather be elsewhere, also, and more frequently are making no secret of it. 'Do as I say and not as I do' never was a very good motivator.
For all of their inexperience, it's hard to fool kids. It's always been that way, whether we're talking about JW kids or Albanian kids or Ethiopian kids and on and on. Over the years, they've eavesdropped on enough conversations between their elders, read between the lines of enough magazines, sensed the heartache and disappointment stemming from old folk (including their parents) that they'd rather not go through THE SAME misery... a different misery, yeah, but not the same. Young people who AREN'T raised JWs kill themselves off at an alarming rate. Just think about those that live these days under the tedium of relentless rules.
An increasing trend that seems to have been borne out by many congregations that I have discussed this situation with. About 78% of committees involved those raised in the Truth and under 21 years of age, 60% of these have left the WTS and have not returned.
Kids, humans, have not changed. Today's young people are cut from the same fabric as kids 15, 50, 100, 1000 years ago. They want the same things young people have always wanted. The Society thinks that by repeated threats of Armageddon and the 'end is right around the corner' they can manage (control) the behavior of people who are not about to put up with the b.s. that their parents have. It's not happening. It ain't gonna happen.
peace,
tj
