Is Change Possible for Homosexuals?

by nicolaou 46 Replies latest social relationships

  • darkuncle29
    darkuncle29
    My youngest son, who is 2, is really attracted to men. I watched him on Thanksgiving when he would let the men in the house pick him up (and I think he was on the verge of kissing one of them and I have seen him act this way before) and I watched my mil watching my son, who would not let her pick him up or even touch him. And I could see the wheels turning in my mil's head. I thought to myself "What if one of my kids is gay?" How will I protected him or her? I couldn't love them any less and would never ever disown them if they came out to me. And I would never ever try to change them.

    Josie

    This reminds me of me around this age. My uncle was a colledge football player and would come home for the summer and work on my grandparents' farm. One or more of his friends would stay sometimes to help with jobs. Good memmories.

  • Enigma One
    Enigma One

    Assimilated into our collective cultures???

    You mean assilmilated in THIS culture. This JUDEO-CHRISTIAN based culture. This VICTORIAN, PURITANICAL based culture. You speak as if somehow the United States' current culture is the pinnacle of enlightenment. LOL. It is so far removed from that it's silly. From Japanese samurai's, greek and roman homosexuality, American Indian shaman homosexuality, to various lesbian cultures, and island cultures that all embraced homosexuality. Sexual mores and practices have always been a shifting and refining process. Shall we talk about women's sexual freedoms too?

    Good grief. It's 2005 not 1955. Embrace diversity. Are we going to be slaves to our own limited JW perspective? Can we learn from the Allegory of the Den by Plato? Take off your blinders, walk out of the cave, and see a whole new world. Oh, and stop by the Kingdum Hall and leave your old reasonings behind. I'm sure a JW there could use it.

  • diamondblue1974
    diamondblue1974
    See, my defining moment was seeing mens hairy asses and just hoping and praying that everything I had would soon be placed in, around, up down and any other which way in as close proximity to those asses as possible.

    I really had no choice. I wanted to fancy girls because they were so much cleaner and prettier and nicer than boys. I tried real hard to develop a crush on a girl at school, but the only one I fancied looked just like a boy.

    Im doomed to want cock all my life.

    I dont think its fair to expect homosexuals to be able to control their sexuality in a way that we dont expect heterosexuals to

    KK since you joined this site your post have constantly made me laugh....hillarious!

    The title of this thread should be

    Is change NECESSARY for homosexuals?

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Carmel

    I have a question for Tetra and others that see evolution as the most likely explanation for life as we know it....How is homosexuality's continued existence explained? If it is genetically determined, how is the allel or group of allels selected for when the end result in such behavior does not result in succeeding generations? It would have to be a "linked" characteristic that was so strong that it was "carried" baggage, so to speak! Even at that, it would have to have a genotypic expression that is selected for by the bearing of offspring with that same genotype.

    Suggests that maybe it is not genetic...or ??

    Great question and well put.

    Current bets are on the genetic component for male homosexuality being on the X chromosome. This would mean a man would never, ever 'get' homosexuality from another man, as a man's X chromosome HAS to be from his mother. I can dig some stuff out for detail if you'd like, but am going out to a party after work and need to get out the office.

    Thus if genetic transfer of sexual inclination is carried by the female, the male's sexuality cannot prevent further transmission. Think how a male haemophiliac can NEVER transfer his genetic condition to a male child, as it's on his X chromosome, but WILL transfer it to a female child - although she has another X chromosome so will probably have one working copy (females who develop hemophilia are very rare)

    If the gene/s have a reproductive or other survival benefit for the mother, or for any female who carries them, then they will survive under the laws of natural selection. Whether a man also gets the same benefit or any benefit as a woman gets from the gene/s IN ADDITION to a homosexual inclination is still unknown.

    The seeming illogicality of a gay man being gay because he got the gayness genetically is totally logical.

    Of course, one cannot ignore that having kids and sexuality are not linked. Millions of men who would have been openly gay if they grew up in a society where this was possible got married and had kids. Millions of women who would have been openly gay if they grew up in a society where this was possible got married and had kids. Even now, gay couples (like one I know) prove sexuality and having kids are separate things by having kids without having sex with someone they are not sexually attracted to; just as a woman whose husband is infertile can have children by someone she is not sexually attracted to. There are species (terns, macaques) that form homosexual pair-bonds or single-sex groups that are sexually active, but they STILL have offspring.

    I hope that's clear, I can give more details and references when I have more time if you so wish.

  • zen nudist
    zen nudist
    I have a question for Tetra and others that see evolution as the most likely explanation for life as we know it....How is homosexuality's continued existence explained? If it is genetically determined, how is the allel or group of allels selected for when the end result in such behavior does not result in succeeding generations? It would have to be a "linked" characteristic that was so strong that it was "carried" baggage, so to speak! Even at that, it would have to have a genotypic expression that is selected for by the bearing of offspring with that same genotype.

    Suggests that maybe it is not genetic...or ??

    while humans have some reflexive programming, there is far more aquired programming by experiences which gets linked to partially formed systems... the sex system exists and can be triggered to give very pleasant stimulation which can cause attachments similar to any sort of drug addiction... combine this with fear and excitement of the forbidden and fetishes and other non-standard desires can result... there seems to be certain imprinting times, not unlike some animals, where events prior and after these critical times frames dont matter as much as what happens during these time periods.... it has been found by some researchers that drugs like LSD can erase many of the aquired imprints and then cause a re-imprinting based on current circumstances.

    I personally dont believe most children are born hetero nor homosexual and dont know what either of them means but acquire this by experiences which are far to variable to show any direct cause and effect relationships.... I dont believe sexual desires are chosen, but discovered just like one discovers they like chocolate over vanilla or vice versa.... the strength of those desires seems likewise a discovery. perhaps if an egghead child learned of imprinting they could directly cause their own sexual desire choice, but few seem to understand that much at the critical ages.

  • bailabklyn
    bailabklyn

    I don't think change is possible. Or it is but it wouldn't be honest and it'd be like ... it'd be like one of us going back into the borg and cutting off an aspect of ourselves again.

    As a female, I like men. I've enjoyed women but I crave men.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    zen

    No-one disputes hair colour or eyecolour is genetic. People don't question a talent for music (beyond what can be explained by early exposure) that runs in families. People will happily ascribe personality traits of children to their parents or grandparents, even if there could be no rote-learning or imitation involved.

    Funny how the minute people claim homosexual oriontation might be at least partially genetically-linked it'a suddenly is so hard for many people to accept.

    while humans have some reflexive programming, there is far more aquired programming by experiences which gets linked to partially formed systems...

    I'd actually diagree - not because we don't HAVE aquired programming, but because our autonomic, reflexive and instinctive subconsious systems far out-weigh the acquired programming. It't normally these things don't act as differentiators as they are engaged in the everyday tasks of keeping the body going and looking out for sabre-tooth tigers, food, and sex.

    Because our sex drive IS one of the mosty basic and essential. It's not like aquiring a taste for olives. It lies UNDER the programming we acquire, and will steer what acquired programming is received.

    the sex system exists and can be triggered to give very pleasant stimulation which can cause attachments similar to any sort of drug addiction... combine this with fear and excitement of the forbidden and fetishes and other non-standard desires can result...

    Obviously sexual likes can be aquired, even unusual ones. But I haven't seen any sucseful attempts to classify homosexuality as a fetish. Your ideas also fail to account for homosexual acquisition in environments are gay-neutral or gay-postive. If you were right, the children of gay couples would almost always be gay. As it is, they are as gay as the lids of average couples.

    there seems to be certain imprinting times, not unlike some animals, where events prior and after these critical times frames dont matter as much as what happens during these time periods....

    And undoubtedly experience does shape SOME peopels sexuality. But to reject the primacy of genetics?

    it has been found by some researchers that drugs like LSD can erase many of the aquired imprints and then cause a re-imprinting based on current circumstances.

    But I don't think you have specific examples of LSD causing a chnage in sexuality, so the relevence of this is moot.

    I personally dont believe most children are born hetero nor homosexual and dont know what either of them means but acquire this by experiences which are far to variable to show any direct cause and effect relationships....

    Why can't it be genetic? I'm not syaing it is 100% genetic, but when evidence is certainly tipping that way (not that I care), I don't get the need to want to insist it is, after all, environmental (even though many gay people would laugh themselves silly at the idea). Is this just a hunch or do you have any research where this is a conclusion?

    I dont believe sexual desires are chosen, but discovered just like one discovers they like chocolate over vanilla or vice versa.... the strength of those desires seems likewise a discovery. perhaps if an egghead child learned of imprinting they could directly cause their own sexual desire choice, but few seem to understand that much at the critical ages
    Again I feel you are looking at the NON-REPRESENTATIVE examples of homosexuality. No one is saying some people don't become gay because of experience or deliberate decision. But the majority? It is scarsely credible.
  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Is change possible for metrosexuals?

    I think this is the real issue that should be dealt with. Those damn metrosexuals with their trendy clothes and soy decaf chai latt├ęs.

  • zen nudist
    zen nudist
    Again I feel you are looking at the NON-REPRESENTATIVE examples of homosexuality. No one is saying some people don't become gay because of experience or deliberate decision. But the majority? It is scarsely credible.

    I did state that I dont know the exactly chain of events or what makes it happen, I would not pretend to know this, and I have found nothing which can point to any specifics in this regard either, what I am saying is that I believe it is very likely a combination of many variables and factors and no one is born specifically one way or the other from anything I can gather. Humans, like our banobo cousins seem to use sex for far more than reproduction... it has part of our socialization and a bonding agent more than it is for just having babies...

    from what I observe of humans in general it seems that many men love each other minus the sex more than any females they know and the boundry line that prevents sex is more or less a mental illusion more than a fact of biology....

    while I was still a JW, I fell into temptation and almost committed fornication and was amazed that there was no alarm bells, no sense of any force holding me back but my own internal guilt and fears... and when it comes to homosexuality my sense of revolution is likewise apparently no more than a mental prejudice that I have no desire to overcome and no need...but I suspect I could without much problem if the circumstances were altered enough.... just like heteros in prison who do not become homosexuals once they are released.

  • Gretchen956
    Gretchen956

    I wonder what part of our lives the sex takes up? Maybe .0001? Well for lesbians its no more than that, we'll give gay men .001! People act like that is all that defines us or thats all we do all day! Our lives are SO much more than that!! Our love is so much more than that. Yes, when you are single you may play around, at least some people do. But the lesbians I have dated have been pretty moral people in terms of not wanting sex for the sake of sex, but rather to get to know one and form an attachment first. After all its way better when its someone you care for. I'm not saying thats the norm, but except when I was very young that has been my way as well. There are percentages of the gay population that have open relationships or like multiple sex partners, but there is a percentage of the straight population as well, its probably about the same percent.

    Love is still feeling the same way after they kept you up by snoring! Love is having to pick up after them. Love is listening to them even when you've heard it thousands of times before. Love is looking at them years later and still getting butterflies. What makes you all think that homosexuals don't have this? Why would we change that?

    and when it comes to homosexuality my sense of revolution is likewise apparently no more than a mental prejudice that I have no desire to overcome and no need...

    Does that mean you won't have gay friends? Or does that mean you won't have gay sex? Many straight men have gay sex, thats what happens in prison. That does NOT make them gay nor would it make you gay.

    I did my best to be a straight woman. I was not happy. I can pretend just fine. Why should I have to? I am in a committed relationship of over four years now, I love my partner, we have a very happy life. What is wrong with that? How does it affect anyone but us? There are countless other stories like mine. Especially those of us that were Jehovah's Witnesses. We did try to change. But we're wired this way. I don't care if its genetics, or what it is, that makes it sound like it's something wrong or to be cured. I don't believe that.

    Sherry

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