by I-CH-TH-U-S 73 Replies latest jw friends
2Cor 8:8 - i am not commanding you, but i want to test the sincerity of your love by comparing it with others.
paul is talking abuot comparing love with another group of believers (the macedonian church)
so i guess im saying compared to other church's (which can "disfellowship" ppl to a certain extent) what is the difference?
so like the song says "WHERE IS THE LOVE?"
ICHTHUS
Disfellowshipping is a horrible, unloving policy. There is absolutely no love to be found in it, anywhere. It employs fear and isolation to inflict punitive emotional damage on those who don't live up to an impossibly high standard. Those sitting in judgment of disfellowshipped ones, the men on the Judicial Committees, are presented to the congregation as "loving shepherds" who will work with a person to try to help them "in a loving spirit". But in reality they are a harsh disciplinary committee. Disfellowshipping is NOT loving, and any attempt to justify it as being so is most likely motivated out of indoctrination and fear.
CD
i tend to agree with you cog, but i want to hear both sides of the arguement, because i think in my mind of how (this is assuming that everything the WT says is correct) if you have a fish tank of water, and you put maybe 1-3 drops of red dye in, the whole thing becomes red, thus infecting the entire thing.....just another thought that comes to mind.....but i want to go more in depth, i dont know much abuot it, basically im told that the person is shunned or shut out of the congregation. can someone please clarify EXACTLY what it is, what happens when someone is disfellowshipped, what if they want to come back? is there forgiveness? etc
ICHTHUS
basically the red dye thing is what its all about man... they dont want the ones who think for themselves to be able to get othes thinking for themselves too.... and yes, if they really want to, i dont know why the fuck they would, they could eventually be brought back into the flock... but only when they show a real repentant attitude and show they want to be at meetings and shit...
but its all bs man... all of it,....
the infamous one
if you have a fish tank of water, and you put maybe 1-3 drops of red dye in, the whole thing becomes red, thus infecting the entire thing
If they are going to use that theory then why do they allow non-witnesses to come to the meeting, associate with them, and even invite them to gatherings. Wouldn't a witness that has made a mistake, even a serious one, need all the support of the congregation. It's amazing how they will spend months of love bombing trying to get someone to become a witness but can disfellowship someone in a matter of weeks. Disfellowshipping someone is just like kids on a playground sticking their tongues out and saying "you can't play with us anymore".
I have a friend that is disfellowshipped. He has a very successfull buisness and his family always shun him except when they need work of course. Him being the better christian gladly gives them work when they need it and even helps out the family with money. All while they are shunning him. I'm not sure if I could be as loving if my family did the same to me.
Disfellowshipping is wrong!! And doesn't make much sense.
Disfellowshipping is the reason for the existance of the organization. Consider: There is so much information available in print and online, which debunks the witness religion. If people were able to talk about that information without threat of disfellowshipping, the org would just become a social club for the elderly. The organization uses fear of losing family members to keep people from talking about the dirty laundry.
If you were raised in an abusive home, you know how the threat of violence can make a family live in silence.
Jean
Dfing and love......
Disfellowshipping is more about keeping the congregation free from contaminating influences that might interfere with the operation of the flow of Jehovahs Holy Spirit than about love. There are alot of biblical references concerning the hurting of Jehovahs spirit due to sin and the need to keep the cong. clean.
Remember Jehovah cannot associate with sinners. Likewise his people must be holy because he is holy.
He has really high standards for the good of the universe I guess.
Anyway, in ancient Israel when a person sinned I guess he was taken before the elders, much like the Christian cong. today. They probably tried to discern if the sinner was repentant. Sacrifice was made to atone for the sin and presented to the priest.
If the sinner was unrepented Jehovahs orders were to stone the sinner to death.
This was the early disfellowshipping procedure. It kept the early Israelite nation clean of sin and ultimately the sinner, if forgiven, might be ressurrected by the Messiah during his later revealed thousand year reign. That was the only "love" about it then, the hope of a resurrection.
Today though, as in Jesus day (when the Romans had control over the govt.) Jeh's people, the Christian cong of witnesses deal with sin in a little bit different way. The sinner is encouraged by elders in meetings to correct his thinking and pray and not to sin. Even serious sin is overlooked if the person is sorry and repentant. But if the person shows an unrepentant attitude or the serious sin is discovered to have been over a period of time and committed many times, sometimes the brothers have no recourse but to disfellowship the sinner. The consequences are that the sinner may continue to attend the meetings, but no brother or sister may communicate anything to him or her outside of the most basic family business matters.
I guess in one respect it is "love" on Gods part to provide his people with a clean people to associate with. (Pedophiles and wife beaters being tolerated nullifies this cleanliness and safety)
Some witnesses take the shunning to the extreme and add sneers and pain with it.
Others are compassionate and explore the loving edges of it and email encouragement or offer magazines or sneek smiles and waves or hand squeezes.
After my dfing I returned to my hall for awhile. It wasnt so bad. No one threw tomatoes at me. No one gave me dirty looks. One lunatic sister (needs meds) screamed and ran from me in the parking lot.
But that was an unusual case. Most were very compassionate and appreciative of my efforts.
But I was not willing to stop sinning at that time. I knew my efforts were futile so I stopped going and moved from that town.
I tried to forget all about Jehovah and the Witnesses for 4 years.
Then I found a magazine (yes, at a laundromat!) and found this site. It started me thinking.
I went to the hall here in the new town. I knew no one. That was in Sept.
The P.O. was very kind and gave me a song book and helped me to a seat in front of him.
He gave me his telephone number and told me if there was anything I needed or just wanted to talk he was there for me. I thought that was very kind.
My experience with both dfing and the processs of return and reinstatement has been very interesting and insightful. I have been treated very well each week and no one has so far interfered with my coming and going. On the contrary many do not know I am dfd and wave, smile and hold doors, and say hi and goodbye.
I dutifully inform everyone necessary that I am dfd and in the process of reinstatement.
I am to meet with the elders this sunday about my request for reinstatement.
I am at peace about it all despite what I read here and what I know.
I feel for everyone who has been hurt by the experience of being a witness.
But that has not been my experience. I have only known spiritual happiness there.
But I also admit I have a very different listening at the hall now.
I am not as prone to suggestion and guilt like before.
I am much more centered on what is good for me, not what is best for others or the world.
After what I've been through I must protect my self.
My congregation is much like what “anewme” describes for the congregation she (?) attends. Regarding Dfing as being an act of love, well it can be. However I have always felt that people who are Df’d for actual Biblical sins are getting what they deserve. Disfellowshipping as it exists in the WTS is used to clean the congregation of unrepentant sinners (this is OK), rid itself of dissenters (OK from an organizational perspective but is not Biblical) and to stifle free-thinking (wrong, wrong, wrong).
D'Fing and Love
Don't belong in the same sentence with each other.
Those words cannot be linked. Shunning is the most blatant form of cult control and one of the most abusive there can be. Totally devoid of love. Anyone who believes shunning is love does not know a deep and unconditional committment and love to another human being. Why is it that any Witness can knock at my wordly door, embrace me in their KH, tell me they care about me and insist they love me as their sister - but they sneer and avoid another sister, who although she WAS their sister, they have cast off for perhaps nothing more sinister than kissing a man. By that example alone I would question their loyalty and proposed love for me - after all, I want a sister in my life who will guide me, embrace me and love me in spite of my weaknesses, not one who believes it is their right to judge, condemn and bury me - and further to do it all so willingly. I've heard the 'keeping the cong clean' - forgive the language c$%#p so many times it's pathetic. Discipline can be meted out within each congregation by removal, reduced privileges and other such means - control can only be achieved by extreme punishment by shunning. Abuse does not equal love.
