they don't hold this exreme Mormon view. there's plenty in the WT publications to indicate that people such as Huss and Wycliffe were on the right path. and were Christians. and were persecuted for doing the right thing and for obeying God, despite the imperfections and lack of full light. what is the inference from that? why are we arguing about this? it's a known fact that the Watchtower does not have the extreme view that Mormonism has. death of the Apostles yes, but not to the point where there were no Christians, even if it was more underground and persecuted and disorganized and scattered, didn't exist. the gates of hades will not prevail against Christ's True Church, even times of darkness. but in the last days, there is some hint in Scripture, both "Testaments", that show a restoration of organized Bibilical worship in the "Last Days". knowledge increased and refinement. but yeah, the general gist is that Huss was righteous and persecuted for righteousness' sake. there's no problem with that.
Is repititive imprinting of ideas a primary cult tactic?
hi. Seattle. I'm not Michelle by the way. as I promised, I will be cordial and sweet as honey with everyone, all the time, as best I can, with God's Spirit and Grace to help me. despite any illogic or nonsense I may get hit with. so no worries. no matter how rude and unreasonable you may be or how anyone may be for that matter, my tone will be much more subdued. In deference to the sensibilities of people out there in apostate land. (no offence was meant by that. just a descriptive term. because like it or not, my position is that you and others on here are apostate. that's not meant as hurtful "name calling" but just what it actually is. "apostate" means deviating or falling away from the faith. even if JWs are a false faith, those who leave it, it's still a falling a way from it, or an "apostatizing" from it.)
as far as that thing about Peace Keeper.
actually what I said was that he was a borderline apostate because of his being critical of WT positions so much. and also the way he seemed to be so cozy with actual apostates. his opinion about my "tone" was not the main reason.
also, another correction. if you knew me well, you'd know that I have investigated things before believing anything. so it's not a blind zombie-like "indoctrination" in that sense. but a careful necessary teaching. "indoctrination" is a loaded term, but the literal meaning of it is fine, because in the First Century, obviously the Christians were being "indoctrinated" by Paul, Peter, James, John, Jude, Matthew, Mark, Luke, the Elders, and the Holy Spirit. there's right doctrine, and wrong doctrine. it's a matter of carefully discerning which is which.
also, I welcome your thoughts on the Bible authenticity matter that I got into, about history, science, archeology, hygeine. are there some valid points with that? holler.
I'll take that as your admission that the Watchtower Society does not teach that "the official position of JWs is that John Huss and John Wycliffe are anointed born again true Christians."
You said that is what they taught, but you found no references to anything other than unverifiable statements of some persons who must have been true Christians down through the ages. You also found hints that specific ones might have been among them. You no doubt have heard parts from the platform averring that as an official teaching, and I am am sure you have heard comments from meeting attenders leaping to this conclusion.
But, as you have seen for yourself if you searched the CD, your statement is false. That is, untrue. And it creates a misleading impression that Jehovah's Witnesses can identify and have identified the progress of true Christianity through the centuries. They cannot. They have not stated that anyone after the death of John is a true Christian, in point of fact, up until C.T. Russell and his followers.
And those "true Christians" believed God built the Great Pyramid at Giza as his "testament in stone," that the measurements of the dimensions of various parts of the temple could prove useful in uncovering hidden Bible chronology. They also believed that Jesus arrived invisibly in 1874, was enthroned in heaven in 1878, and woud destroy the world of ungodly men at Armageddon in 1914 or 1915. They didn't just believe that, they taught it. In the name of Jehovah, they spoke about things which would come true in the future.
Deuteronomy 18:20 — “‘However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.’"
Wow! Seems like God takes a very dim view of people who presume to speak in his name things that do not come true. So, given that in 1919 they were preaching that 1925 would see the return of all the "ancient worthies," and "if anyone dies after 1925 its their own fault," and "Millions Now Living Will Never Die," (none of which came to pass) explain to me why Jesus would have picked them in 1919?
How is it they didn't figure out that selection even happened until the 1930s? Too much about this organization's early history doesn't ring true to me. You call it the light getting brighter, that over time they transformed themselves into Christians. I see fulfillment of another Scriptural text:
2 Corinthians 11:12-15 — Now what I am doing I will still do, that I may cut off the pretext from those who are wanting a pretext for being found equal to us in the office of which they boast. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works.
Maybe you will fairly evaluate, maybe not. I am curious to hear what you have to say about the Bible's teachings regarding "Paradise earth." Please note the quotation marks.
I had another guy ask me about birthday celebrations, and I told him, and he appreciated it and that was that. he didn't whine about my tone like so many others are. he just looked at my points and considered them and that was that.
That 'birthday guy' would be me. :-)
In fact, I thought it would be best if we had our little birthday chat out in the open, rather than in the closed doors of pm's. There's a thread started on it, and you are invited to respond. DefD is also a JW, but he doesn't go into the kind of detail you do. I hope you'll drop by. You can find the thread here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/103056/1.ashx
Please don't just repost info from the Reasoning Book, we've all read it. Instead, please respond to the reasoning in the thread. (Interestingly, a fellow apostate pointed out a hole in my birthday document which I will need to address.)
I think that there's confusion and mis-application of the terms. new light is not what you think. it's a progressive understanding of the gospel that's already there. either of the gospel of God's Grace, or the Gospel of God's Kingdom. dross has to be removed, and clarification of understanding of the already revealed gospel. you think John Huss knew everything there was to know about the Bible and in the Bible?? prophecy, senacharib, kingdom, dispensations, covenants, last days, Judgment, second coming, millennium, intricate nuggets of everything? that's what's meant. when did I say "new gospel"? no. it's a brighter and clearer understanding of the glorious Treasure House that is the Holy Bible, in the face of physical facts, and world history, and the "last days". I hope that helps. if not, then maybe we'll talk more about it in emails. I
'm glad you're into the Bible though. you don't disbelieve God's Word. you respect the Scriptures as God's Revelation. some ex-JWs don't have any faith in the Bible at all I notice. they think it's just a nice religious book of men, just like the koran. I admit that at first glance that thing in 1 John 2 can make a person think for a moment what the deal is. because it seems a little contradictory with other things in the Bible about "teachers and pastors" of the church and "how can know without someone to teach and guide me" and Phillip, an elder of the church, was that someone. etc. that's why in the Bible things mean different things in different senses. that's what needs to be understood. if a teaching authority wasn't necessary or important, then why WAS there a teaching authority and "Elder Body" and Governing Authority in Acts and throughout the Epistles. (Acts, Romans, Galatians) Paul being one big leader and governor of God's Church. Apostle to the Gentiles. it's just something to think about.
and also, that letter from John, was not a "just because" or "dear" letter. but an instructive inspired letter, "necessary for DOCTRINE" ("all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for DOCTRINE" 2 Timothy 3:16).
sweetscholar: but yeah, the general gist is that Huss was righteous and persecuted for righteousness' sake.
See? This is why I have a hard time believing you research for truth. I'm not saying you don't, it is just difficult to believe given the lack of sources in your posts.
You first spoke of official JW doctrine as though you could authoritatively substantiate your persepective. While I have to congratulate you on even picking up that the WTS hints at John Hus being a true Christian (and I believe they were) you must admit that they don't officially teach that to be the case.
I knew that you would not find it because I asked them specifically some years back for any true Christian person or organization that could be pointed to from 100 AD to 1850 AD. Their response was a long silence followed by a letter indicating that while we may not be able to find specific examples that were without question Christian, no doubt there were some because there had to be.
I abbreviated their response, of course, but that was the gist. It is the same with the articles. Hints, but never anything definite. Certainly nothing strong enoughto call "official teaching" as you did.
One down. On to other things.
Well, sweetscholar, this post is a welcome change. Perhaps we can have a reasonable discussion after all.
However, this thread is not about the authenticity of the Bible, so I will start a new thread about that topic, starting with the points you made, and post the URL here so you can jump over to it. See you in a bit.
And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. (2 Tim2:24-26)
But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
Oh, you mean like the new understanding that transcendental meditation is referred to by Jesus?
*** w83 7/15 pp. 29-30 Watch Out for This Deceiver! ***Particularly problematical is yoga-type meditation. Some may point to the fact that the Bible, too, encourages meditation. However, Christian meditation is an active meditation, pondering on upbuilding and beneficial matters. (Psalm 63:6; Proverbs 15:28; Philippians 4:8) Yoga-style meditation is something else. “The soul’s essence, pure intelligence, is obscured by mental activities, whose suppression is the main purpose of Yoga. The mind is to be controlled by constant practice of meditation and nonattachment to material objects. The ultimate result is the suppression of all mental tendencies, conscious or latent.”—The Encyclopedia Americana.
Is such emptying of the mind healthy? One practicer reports that during one extended period of exercise and meditation, he felt frequent attacks by invisible forces. The demons can take advantage of a mind that is empty and fill it with their own thoughts. (Luke 11:24-26) So beware! This practice could make you their prey.
So? sweetscholar? Is the proscription against transcendental meditation a Scriptural proscription? Consider the full context of Luke 11:24-26 and get back to me on that one.
What about oral and anal sex within the marriage? Is it traditional thinking of men the Society teaches on these matters or Scriptural teachings?
How about birth control? Why can a man be viewed as unfit for appointment if he has a vasectomy? Is that Scriptural?
What about shaving? I know in some places it is permitted without penalty of any kind, but that is beside the point. Is it Scriptural to impose shaving on someone as a requirement for appointment to spiritual oversight?
How about Paradise being on earth when two of the three Scriptures in the NT that use the word Paradise put it squarely in heaven? Along with the tree of life, mind you.
What about Judicial Committees? I don't think you answered that one. New light? Based on what Gospel? Not the one from the NT, surely!
What about the Faithful and Discreet Slave, as a class, supposedly being given all authority in 1919 and my not being able to find any authority for the Faithful and Discreet Slave, as a class, in 2005? Why can't you show me what they have authority over today?
No, I think most of your organization's new light is BRAND SPANKING NEW, and is not from God. (1 John 4:1)
But I suppose you are right about their understanding changing. For nearly 80 years their understanding of what Jesus meant by "generation" remained unchanged, although the definition they now use was known over 80 years prior. Then, in 1995, 81 years after 1914 (after the time limit for a lifespan placed by Psalms had elapsed) the "understanding" miraculously changed. Or it was wrong the whole time they were teaching it as "truth," "basis for complete confidence," and "an absolutely unchangable deadline."
The latter explanation is the more likely one. It is historically very much in keeping with how this organization "teaches" its people. Do yourself a favor, do a chronological search through the CD-ROM on the word "generation" going from the oldest Watchtowers to the newest. You can do the rest, too, there are lots of references to read. Some don't relate, but all will give you the flavor of the doctrine and the force of the assertions of truth.
It bears up one vital question: If they can be wrong (if they are fallible) how can they be trusted to tell God's truth? They were wrong about 1914 once, how can I be certain they aren't wrong again?
See, with Noah it was easier. He wasn't wrong, right? According to Genesis, God spoke to him directly. God told him what to do and he did it, "just so." Moses did the same thing. But these Governing Body members, they aren't getting messages from God so they aren't doing just so. How can I put my trust in the sons of earthling man? They can't save me.
but an instructive inspired letter, "necessary for DOCTRINE" ("all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for DOCTRINE" 2 Timothy 3:16).
Okay, sweetscholar, have it your way. But you are making John out to be a liar when he specifically stated why he was NOT writing them. If you are comfortable with that...
BTW, Neither Paul's writings nor John's writings were considered Scripture when Paul wrote that letter to Timothy. The Catholic Church gave us our current canon of Scripture, not God. Just something to think about.