Is repititive imprinting of ideas a primary cult tactic?

by hubert 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  ellderwho

  16 As a result of the zealous and diligent preaching effort of the early Christian organization people in many lands heard the good news and became believers. WT 1971 page 72 para. 16

  
  Watchtower 1953 :
  

  20 After a lapse of many centuries God revived the preaching of the good news in the latter part of the nineteenth century.

  
  

  
  So for a couple of thousand years Jehovah really didnt have an organization.

  17After the death of the apostles the Christian organization began to deteriorate because of corrupting beliefs brought into it from false religions. WT 1951

  
  EW
• 

  AuldSoul

  but the official position of JWs is that John Huss and John Wycliffe are anointed born again true Christians.

  Stating that a thing is true does not make it true. Reference please. Unverifiable claims from someone who freely ignores words from his primary text at will doesn't inspire confidence in me. I know that this is suggested as a possibility, but I believe you will have an extremely difficult time establishing the truth of what you wrote.

  In point of fact, I have read every reference on the WT Library CD-ROM for both "Hus" and "Huss" (he is known and referred to by both names) and there is no such claim made there. In what context did you receive this special "secret" knowledge about our doctrines?

  AuldSoul
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  AuldSoul

  I say "our doctrine" because I am still nominally one of Jehovah's Witnesses...in other words, I have not been accused of anything nor am I currently being disciplined for anything. But I am very near to sending in a letter of disassociation. I thought that might affect how you interact with me.

  I will be curious to see whether your actions are in harmony with the actions, to date, of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses.

  AuldSoul
• 

  AuldSoul

  After baptism, the Ethipoian Eunuch went ... to Ethiopia and started preaching there. Under whose direction?

  Holy spirit. The same source of direction for Phillip.

  Phillip's four daughters were prophetesses, under the direction of the organization or holy spirit?

  Holy spirit. The same source that indicated that Cornelius and family were ready for baptism. Peter and the others didn't know they should baptize Cornelius and family until they saw evidence that they had received ...

  ... Holy spirit.

  Paul told the Corinthians that the spirit teaches the things we speak, he didn't say the Governing Body teaches the things we speak.

  Jesus said he would send a helper to his disciples that would lead them into all truth. The helper was ...

  ... Holy spirit.

  Paul decided to go to Macedonia. Was that because of the directions he received from Jerusalem or due to direction of Holy Spirit?

  Holy Spirit, wins again!

  The congregation in Jerusalem gathered after the apostles and older men of Jerusalem met with Paul, Barnabas, Titus and the others and they wrote that "WE decided blah, blah, blah" or the "holy spirit AND we ourselves favor blah, blah, blah?"

  Holy spirit trumps organization every time!

  John, the friend whom Jesus especially loved, taught that we should stick close to God's organization or to the leadings of Holy Spirit and God's word?

  1 John 2:26-29 — These things I write YOU about those who are trying to mislead YOU. And as for YOU, the anointing that YOU received from him remains in YOU, and YOU do not need anyone to be teaching YOU; but, as the anointing from him is teaching YOU about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught YOU, remain in union with him. So now, little children, remain in union with him, that when he is made manifest we may have freeness of speech and not be shamed away from him at his presence. If YOU know that he is righteous, YOU gain the knowledge that everyone who practices righteousness has been born from him.

  You have no similar scripture that shows a requirement for Christians to heed edicts from a group of men, do you?

  EVERYONE who practices righteousness has been born from him. This organization practices unrighteousness after the manner of their forefathers the Pharisees, an earthly organization that made similar claims to authority and which Jesus rejected. Jesus disciples were expelled from the synagogue as apostates against the law of Moses. Many Jehovah's Witnesses are similarly expelled, for the exact same reason.

  But, mostly, Jesus said not to believe people who claimed to be anointed (i.e. "on the basis of my name, saying 'I am Christ,'" christos means anointed). The preaching work is a powerful work, but certainly doesn't prove anything by itself. Other organization expend far less effort and realize far greater success. In the end, you have really no proof of God having chosen that organization beyond wishful thinking and blind belief. I understand, I used to like you.

  Maybe you can come up with an answer to either of my two questions by tomorrow. I haven't seen an answer yet.

  AuldSoul
• 

  Peacekeeper

  Good evening everyone. I am a practicing JW who is concerned with some of the doctrinal issues the slave class presents.

  I was browsing this site, read this post, and decided I had to respond.

  My reasons - Sweet Scholar - I am absolutely appalled by the way that you speak to people on this forum in your mails. Like SNG said in an earlier post, many hundreds of people visit this website, will have read your comments and will be disgusted by your nasty remarks, I am extremely offended and embarassed to think that you are trying to reason with individuals on such a basis.

  My suggestions to everyone would be: 1) Keep focused on 1 topic - and 1 topic only rather than many different topics which inevitably goes nowhere.

  2) Sweetscholar - learn some respect for others viewpoints - remember that your ultimate goal should be to win people over to your arguements not push them further away - Jesus may have called the Pharisees "offspring of vipers etc" but the advantage Jesus had was that he could read people's hearts and knew what they were like inside - you can't and you certainly do not know people's background on this site so you should be slow to condemn anyone, let alone start name calling.

  You may state and consider that your comments are mild and unoffensive. Unfortunately this is not the case. Adults do not need to use deroragotory names\insulting terms when reasoning with individuals.

  So keep the comments to the point, use more paragraphs and cut out the name calling otherwise you are never going to get any of your messages across to anyone who comments on this thread or who views it like I did earlier.

  Having said all that, peace to all.
• 

  ellderwho

  Peacekeeper,

  Welcome to the forum, hope you stick around.

  EW.
• 

  sweetscholar

  Auldsol but they said clearly that they were true Christians. even without complete light. my only point in bringing that up is that Mormons don't believe the Bible at all, and go overboard. they say there was no Christianity at all, zippo, after John's death. that's a distortion and an exaggeration. John Huss, John Wycliffe, Tyndale, the Waldenses and Albigenses, Micheal Servetus, etc, who were advocates of Bible Truth, and dissemination, and suffered, are definitely considered in a good light and as "Christians" and "true martyrs" by the Watchtower. But Mormons have officially said no. (I'm not talking about individual Mormons who have other views, but the official position of the LDS). saying that only Joseph Smith was there anything true after the Apostles' death. JWs are not Mormons. not even close. that's what my overall point was in bringing up Huss and so forth. the WT has called them martyrs and Christians and persecuted for righteousness sake. what does all that mean? that's the point. later.
• 

  seattleniceguy

  Peacekeeper,

  Welcome to the board! Hang up your jacket, grab a cup of joe, and pull up a seat. Hope to hear from you lots - you sound like a person who's true to their name.

  Keep focused on 1 topic - and 1 topic only rather than many different topics which inevitably goes nowhere.

  Ordinarily, I would agree that the type of discussion on this thread is pointless. But in this particular instance, sweetscholar is producing such an incredibly compelling real-life example of the results of indoctrination ("repetitive imprinting of ideas", as the thread title calls it) that I could hardly think of a better way of making the point.

  Anyway, welcome again. See you around!

  SNG
• 

  sweetscholar

  Auldsoul, I don't consider you a witness at all. to be frank. and neither do I consider PeaceKeeper. he's just as much a whiner as the rest of them. and it was not just Jesus but Paul and Stephen too. and not seeing the actual points raised. don't be so thin-skinned. oversensitivity to every little syllable that you may not like doesn't help either.

  now, again, Auldsoul, you keep bringing up 1 John 2:27 and reciting that ad nauseum about "not needing a teacher" ripping it out of context and also dismissing SO MANY OTHER VERSES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT where it says "teacher teacher teacher teacher". for you to use the Eunech to try to back up your Korah like apostasy is insane. his own words to Philip, and don't gloss over them, is "how can I know sir without somone to teach me," and he was NOT referring to just the "Holy Spirit" either. the same is true in the matter with Cornlius. Peter, an Elder and Rep of the visibile Church and Arrangement, and not just the Holy Spirit alone, was needed. the Ethiopian was reading God's Word, but he needed a live visible TEACHER. to guide him. so your constant appeal to 1 John when that was talking about being taught to "know the Lord" (compare Hebrews 8:11), and the context was about people trying to MISLEAD them (2:26), not referring to true authoritative apostolic teachers, not understanding the pertinent context of that statement, and making a religion out of it almost, is very auspicious.

  because what do you do with all the other verses that say "the apostles and elders direct and bind you" and "how can I know without a teacher" and "be obedient to those taking the lead among you and teaching you, giving the double honor". etc? and also analyze it. John himself was TEACHING them by writing his very epistle. there are many teaching and study points in his letters. if teaching was absolutely unnecessary by apostles and elders then why are there such things as apostles and elders in the first place, and why did John have to write anything to them about "Christ's Blood" and "keep His commandments" and about "anti-Christ"? yes it was inspired Scripture, but the point is that Paul said "be obedient to those takeing the lead and be submissive" (unlike Korah with Moses). and Philip TAUGHT that Eunech, even though that Ethiopian had Scripture in his possession. why did Paul and the Apostles and Elders meet and convene and decide matters and added "these NECESSARY things" on all the congregations, if those congregations had the Spirit and that's all that was needed?? no answers to that at all I notice. I never down-played the Spirit. but you're saying it's that and just that, end of discussion.

  it was the Governing Body AND the Spirit that "laid those necessary things" working together, not instead of each other. let's not go bananas on 1 John 2, and shut our eyes to everything else in the Greek New Testament, Acts, Hebrews, 1,2 Corinthians, Jude, Reveletion 3, etc. there's a balance, in other words. also, one other thing. it says "anointing" right?? well that would apply to the anointed ones mainly. but that's a whole other debate and discussion. but even so, the Christians in the first century clearly received guidance, direction, and teaching from human elders and authority. they were not private intepreters claiming to go by just God's Spirit. that's what we have in chaotic Christendom today, especially Protestantism. a mish mosh of conflicting sects, denominations, cults, groups, all claing to go just by the Bible and by the Spirit. yet having many differences in doctrine and practice. what does that say? later.
• 

  seattleniceguy

  Peacekeeper,
  I just wanted to make a suggestion for a good resource. If you're interested in reading some thoughtful articles with 0% vitriol content (always a good thing in my book), check out this web site: http://members.aol.com/beyondjw/bj.htm
  In particular, look at the articles under the subheading "Points to Ponder."
  I found this site to be clearly written and enlightening when I began considering the issues carefully.
  Best wishes,
  SNG