Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-13-05 WT Study (Education) (page 4)

blondie

Yes, "w" means Watchtower, "g" means Awake (leftover from when it was the Golden Age).

Everlasting Gobstomper

thanks, would have never guessed the "g" either

In the 80's and elder once told me that there was a lot of hard feelings between the older group who did not go to college and were working as toliet cleaners ;and the new ones being brought into the org, ones that had college educations and all and good jobs. These were being promoted in the congregations and used by the WTS b/c they had skills the WTS needed. He failed to see in his own words, they were used by the WTS.

Some in my age group had unbelieving fathers and were "forced" to go to college. I noticed the parents who had more money were not about to let their kids clean toliets.They went to college. Some would drop out and go to college then come back , to be received with open arms.

So much nonsense.

weds

thepackage

It’s very difficult for me to read this article since its false. The article does not mention the benefits of going to college. When I started studying I was told not to mention that I was going to college. (FYI, The elder I was studying with went to college and met his wife there.) I felt so bad for trying to educate myself and study at the same time. Still I was told not to say anything. 15 years later, I have a couple of Masters and a great job, I’m going for Ph.D. and the elders that gave me a hard time and they are still working at their brainless jobs. No offence on anybody but don’t be dumb, GO TO SCHOOLL!!

thepackage

Thier has never been an article that has been so wrong in the last 20 years.

orangefatcat

Blondie your expose of the watchtower lesson was excellent. I enjoyed everyword you said.

I wasn't allowed to pursue a higher education and expect to live at home, it was the rule of our home, that you finish high school and then you become a regular pioneer, and if you didn't my dad told us to get out and get a living of our own to put a roof over your head and get a job.. Doh!!

Very astude on his part, he didn't realize what he was saying in one breathe and contridicating in the second breath, get out and get a living well gee whiz dad how is that possible if we can't get a higher education. He was so unreasonable.

I wanted to become a doctor and was often admonished by other doctors I knew who felt I would make it as a great doctor. But god forbid it was no permissable. Rebellion is a spirit of the devil.

I really enjoyed what you said, your comments regarding Everlasting Life. you called it the CARROT, that is so true and it really tickled my funny bone.

It really shows us how hypocritical the WTS is because its okay for them to get medical degrees, law degrees architechal degrees, sheesh don't you need a higher education for that. They are so full of you know what.

So sorry this couldn't get posted on JWC hopefully they will iron out those problems for you.

And once again thanks for your time and effort in making the WTS look like idiots.

love ya

Orangefatcat

blondie

Great comments, everyone and I know that there are more. So many of us grew up in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s when "higher education" was demonized. In the 60’s and 70’s it was the era of the hippies, the sexual revolution, demonstrations at the universities, Kent State, the bombing at the UW in Madison, recreational drugs. 1975 was just around the corner and no one would need doctors, accountants, lawyers, etc. In the 1980’s it was disco and the me-generation. And the end was just around the corner, 70 year generation ended in 1984, 1986 was the UN Year of Peace and Security.

More importantly, even outside the WTS community it was still possible to get a good job with just a HS diploma. But that started changing. HS did not turn out people with strong, basic skills any more. Even universities had to give remedial classes in math, science and English to get students up to speed with basic university requirements. Companies started upgrading and phasing out jobs that needed only HS diplomas.

The WTS finally gave in and let JWs get additional education in the 1990’s. That was all most JWs needed, permission to get more than a HS education. So more and more JW children went to college rather than to Bethel or into regular pioneering. Without the pressure of the draft during Vietnam, many young JW men no longer felt pressured to maintain the status of a full-time minister. The JW children of the 90’s were the children of the JWs of the 70’s who had forgone an education because the end was coming in 75. They weren’t going to be duped into depriving their children of an education.

Great experience, Soledad,

Later on I did eventually go to a 4 year school and graduated, top honors. But I received no kind of support from anyone, financial or otherwise.

For those of you in your late teens, early twenties, your life is not over if your parents did not support you in furthering your education. I live in a university town and the vast majority who attend do so through scholarships, grants, loans, and working a part-time job, combining expenses with other students. Scholarships are offered to older students too, not just in high school. Check with your local university and see what is available.

Good summary of the manipulative WTS vocabulary, jgnat.

I am so very impressed with the JW youth who pursue their talents in spite of the derision or outright opposition of their congregation and family. These kids are a powerfully strong-minded bunch.

This is an education in itself. What you want in life is rarely handed to you easily. Most times we have to fight for what we want.

Hey, Ozner

Some things are beyond fixing and need to be torn down. Isn’t that what the WTS says about the world today?

Good point, Jeff

I wonder how successful they will be with this since the cat is now out of the bag so to speak.

(or as one poster, close the barn door)

They may threaten the elders and MS with removal if they let their children go to college. But then who would run the congregations for them? Many congregations in this area are already short on elders and MS.

Sorry to hear about your situation, Cygnus. I am fighting a disability myself.

I heard grumbling from some brothers who weren't as well-to-do that he didn't have to have such a high paying job while they passed up opportunities and made ALL the meetings. Yet none of this prevented him from qualifying as a ministerial servant. When he got a promotion at work and didn't have to work Saturday nights any longer he was instantly promoted to elder and even conducted the WT study, though he hadn't actually been to one in years.

Good example. I have seen this happen so often; it is the rule rather than the exception. Shows how the WTS speaks out of both sides of their mouth.

Right on, xjwms,

Do as we say, not as we do.—WTS

Pushes the cream to the top

I love your comments on that, the wt sets the example, .. how true...they also push the cream to the top.

GGG

, tell her not to worry. She is just a woman and they WTS is more worried about the young men not signing up for Bethel or "reaching out."

My high-school senior daughter, who is applying to colleges at the moment, is already freaking out about this study article.

Tell her not to worry about what people at the KH think. From the experiences on this thread, she has a lot of company.

freedomlover, I’m hope the day comes soon you don’t have to endure but will be home having pancakes and sausage, drinking coffee and reading the paper, looking at your honey across the table.

Thanks Blondie- I love to read these! It makes sitting through it at meeting slightly tolerable when I can pick the article apart with your help!

Did you know that I did these reviews on JWD for the first year while I was still attending meetings?

Excellent insight, frogleg

stand flatfooted and swear that JWs don't tell other JWs what to do; that its all a "matter of conscience".

A typical cult tactic. It’s all smoke and mirrors, an appearance of choice to outsiders, but a rigid control of people’s actions within the congregation.

AA,

I zoomed in that phrase too.

"Seemingly successful"...

I can think of many "seemingly successful" materially JWs that the COs and other JWs sucked up to. In the entertainment field, Michael Jackson, Prince, George Benson, Larry Graham, Margaret Keane, who get preferential treatment and excepted from the rules of Jwdom.

WTS motto—go where the money is.

I agree, Room 215,

I tell you, with this article and this ill-considered anti-intellectualism, the Watchtower is ``eating its young." Firstly, it's a great magazine to enter as Exhibit A in any child custody case which pits a non-JW parent against a JW spouse.

I know of at least five such cases in my wife's congregation who, however strongly they support the Faithful & Discreet Slave in all other matters, have silently but firmly broken with them on this one.

But then the JW religion has been a "pick and choose" organization anyway. I have known elders to be very hard-nosed about associating with DF’d relatives until their own son/daughter was df’d and they wanted to see their grandchildren.

Wow, Lee, great, excellent, concise, wish I had said it,

The Society's articles on higher education are curiously silent about God blessing Daniel's pagan higher learning. The best they can come up with is saying that Daniel was forced into accepting higher education because he was in exile: "It should be remembered that Daniel and his three Hebrew companions were captives in exile when they were obliged to undertake advanced studies in Babylon, but they consistently kept their integrity" (1 November 1992 Watchtower, "Education With a Purpose", p. 20). Yet, the preceding article in the same magazine noted that such education was "potentially dangerous", especially as it included "wisdom of the Chaldean priests," i.e. education in false religion and even spiritism

("Education in Bible Times", p. 13). So let me get this straight. The faith of Daniel and his companions was so strong that they risked death twice rather than worship the king or worship a false idol (Daniel 3, 6). And yet when they were faced with the task of learning Babylonish divination, astrology, myths, literature, and whatever else fell under the purview of "everything connected with literature and wisdom", the only objection they were able to muster is a minor matter about the food they were supposed to eat? Clearly, the education itself was not viewed as compromising their principles, as they were more than willing to stake their life on their faith.

Wonderful, Effie

(cute picture)

I found it most interesting how they blamed the falling away of college students to the (so-called) immoral atmosphere of University. Of course it wouldn't have anything to do with forcing the students to start thinking for themselves and looking at things logically.

Is that an example of the strawman?

Dear Axelspeed,

Note to WT: The party as you knew it 20 yrs. ago is over. The internet is here. And people, even JWs, realize that education is something that is better to have than not. The JW parents who were burned 20 yrs ago are not about to let it happen to their kids.

That’s right, parents of today are the young JWs of yesteryear that were steered away from "higher education" because the end was near. Twenty years later….where is the end?

Good article, truthseeker,

http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1056294,00.html

It shows how a typical WTS tactic is to demonize the situation.

I approached an elder last week, and asked him if the Society was against higher education because of the comments brought out in the drama. He said the Society disapproves of higher education.
He privately told me he disagrees with the view the Society has on education - he said it should be a personal choice.
He has a teenage son who is considering going to university when he graduates high school. The son was confused by the talk and the drama, and thinks he'll be "looked down" upon if he decides to attend.

This elder told me that there are
"more young people going to university than pioneering."
I asked why he thought this was the case.
"They don't want to flip burgers for a living."

He then said something very interesting, that "the Society discourages competition", which is one reason that young JW's can't attend school sports. They also "might get involved with immorality."

He sensed a contradiction in the Society's stand becausse he then said that, "the Society seems to be OK with academic competition
"; meaning it's OK for a JW youth to excel in school and come first place.

As a side note, how many Awake articles have you seen, where on the back cover, some JW student won first place in some public speaking competition, talking about their faith. (an attempt by the WTS to make themselves seem normal)
From what I gather, it's OK for JW's at high school to shine scholastically and win competitions when "it promotes religion", such as why JW's don't celebrate Christmas or take blood, but it's not OK to take part in after school sports.

Regarding the dangers of immoral temptations faced by JW's who attend extracurricular activities, he said that, "
if JW's want to commit immorality, they don't have to join a club or play in a team."

Most of the young JWs that get involved in "immorality" have never joined a club, been in sports, or gone to the university.

I agree, daniel-p

mentioning how 60% of students did not find employment that matched their major.

But they did find employment, many times related to their major, or at least the employer felt that the employee’s degree demonstrated the ability to stick with a project and succeed over a 4 to 5 year time period.

I wonder how many JWs stick with pioneering or Bethel? I wonder what the turnover is? For pioneers few make it through 5 years and Bethel seems to be a revolving door with few lasting 2 years.

Dune, thanks, for the personal insight,

I tricked my brother into switching the article readings, so i got to read the WT last week and he has to do it tommorow. It just would have looked stupid if a college student was up there reading all of this.

Do you think you were given that reading assignment on purpose, an indirect way of counseling you?

Thanks for pointing the absurdity of this picture. I thought about it but forgot.

THere is this picture with a guy on grass and there are people in the background kissing and drinking for 40's.But take it from a person who is IN college, NO ONE is walking around making out in the open let alone drinking OUT IN THE OPEN where 70% of the students are below drinking age.

So true, sf,

Um, our main CON-cern is to raise our WT children according to WT doctrine and policy so as they do not die at Armageddon at the hand of our LOVING god Jehovah.

HB, you’re so cute, been getting good wheel time?

pioneers who left school to pioneer, without a high school diploma

I knew some who did that back in the 60’s and 70’s thinking the end was coming SOON, VERY SOON NOW. They had to go back and get their GED so they could support their families.

*** w92 11/1 p. 18 Education With a Purpose ***

What is often the situation today? It has been reported that in some countries many well-intentioned youngsters have left school after completing the minimum required schooling in order to become pioneers. They had no trade or secular qualifications. If they were not helped by their parents, they had to find part-time work. Some have had to accept jobs that required them to work very long hours to make ends meet. Becoming physically exhausted, they gave up the pioneer ministry.

Heathen, I can think of a big party crowd at several congregations, only 1% were college students.

If you are wanting drinking and immorallity you can find that at the local cong. once you're in the "accepted crowd."

Good summary of WTS highlights, willyloman,

How interesting that since 1995, when the WT came out from behind its cloak of infallibility and admitted they were completely wrong the word Generation and its related chronology, they've gone from one train wreck to the next: The UN scandal, the Dateline revelations, a widespread dip in their once-continuous growth in developing lands, the mass defection of many of their young, and now this total flip flop on education.

Or as Jeff said, let the cat out of the bag

losing so many young people they had nothing to lose by locking the barn door.

Good catch, Gary,

Here is a quote from the last elder to visit me.

"Currently, I am continuing my education by working on a Bachelor's Degree in Naturopathy specializing in Homeopathy." http://www.geocities.com/siouxfallsmassage/instructor.html

daniel-p, I see elder thinking cropping up in you,

There are over 20 students in one of the local halls .

I can't even begin to imagine all the qualifying statements that are going to be made by the elders... I know they really do not want to alienate the students.
WT Conductor: "So brothers, is this article saying we can't go to college?"

Elder in audience: "No, not at all... what it is recommending, though, is we should be encouraging our young children to make an increased share in field service their primary goal when they leave high school, and not to place secular goals higher than theocratic goals ."

Very good talking out of both sides of his mouth.

what this article is saying to youths is "pioneer for a couple of years after highschool, and then you can do what you want."

Wednesday!

In the 80's and elder once told me that there was a lot of hard feelings between the older group who did not go to college and were working as toliet cleaners ;and the new ones being brought into the org, ones that had college educations and all and good jobs. These were being promoted in the congregations and used by the WTS b/c they had skills the WTS needed.

Good points.

Some in my age group had unbelieving fathers and were "forced" to go to college

Yes, I saw the elders use that excuse when the ones they were counseling against college pointed out the inconsistency. They had to "obey" their "worldly" father. It doesn’t matter that they were 18 and not legally subject to their father’s wishes.

Thepackage,

The article does not mention the benefits of going to college. When I started studying I was told not to mention that I was going to college. (FYI, The elder I was studying with went to college and met his wife there.) I felt so bad for trying to educate myself and study at the same time. Still I was told not to say anything. 15 years later, I have a couple of Masters and a great job, I’m going for Ph.D. and the elders that gave me a hard time and they are still working at their brainless jobs. No offence on anybody but don’t be dumb, GO TO SCHOOLL!!

Good thing you didn’t study with one that didn’t go to college. Did you get baptized?

OFC, glad to see you posting,
I really enjoyed what you said, your comments regarding Everlasting Life. you called it the
CARROT , that is so true and it really tickled my funny bone.

There is a "carrot" in just about every article, more than one sometimes.

The WTS gets people to put off living for a future life. You can only life in the moment. Today is reality.

Excellent, folks. Better than any WT study, Better than 100 WT studies, Blondie

upside/down

So basically... the WTS believes that if your "sheltered" from "badness" you won't pursue it?

What happened to building with "fire resistant materials"?

The Dub youths I've known...have taken leading a double life, being judgemental and hypocrisy to all time high new levels.

I've yet to meet their "worldly" counterparts.

u/d

daniel-p

Im very tempted to bring my sudoku puzzle to the meeting today so I can endure the general imbicility....

blondie

This game might liven things up:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/27457/1.ashx

Bullshit Bingo (Watchtower-style)

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-13-05 WT Study (Education)

blondie

Everlasting Gobstomper

wednesday

thepackage

thepackage

orangefatcat

blondie

upside/down

daniel-p

blondie

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