In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws 102 Replies latest jw friends

jst2laws

We hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument. Would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept? It would also be wrong, as the WT does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.
So would it be wrong to accept the fact that the WTS, despite its flaws, has many good scriptural truths to share. Can we reject what they have pressed to the world: God has a name, His Kingdom is to solve man’s problems, the Earth is to become a paradise as God purposed, man will live endlessly on Earth as intended, those who died will return in a resurrection of the dead rather that burn in hell, and this good news is to be preached in all the earth. With all its flaws, no one else is doing this internationally, staying out of politics and wars in each nation, except Jehovah’s Witnesses.
We may not fully understand what the kingdom is, may use God’s name to the extent we rob it of some due dignity, have pushed for holiness and righteousness and obedience to the point of overlooking faith in the ransom as the means to true righteousness, and most of all the leadership have become obsessed with their presumption of speaking for God. I’m embarrassed, but I step back and still see a people God it using, at least as a dragnet. (mat. 13:47-50) Who else is teaching so many of the basic truths World Wide? You don’t have to write and tell me they are all serving for the wrong motives and they are all indoctrinated. These problems exit but this is not so of all or I would not be here and you would not be sharpening your pencils to refute me.
Jst2laws
ozziepost

jst2laws,
You said: "Who else is teaching so many of the basic truths World Wide?"
So often at the meetings we hear statements like this. (Yes, I still attend and am in 'good standing') Can I ask, How do you know this? Is it simply because we have heard this repeatedly at the meetings/assemblies or read it in the publications? Again I ask, how do you know? Have you investigated for yourself? I did and I was shocked.
Would you be prepared to check it out for yourself?
Ozzie (of the checkout chicks class)
ICHING

2laws
what is the proportion between the flaws and the "many good scriptural truths"
there is such a thing as a write off
i can't help having the premonition that you may be about to receive a crash course in understanding this
I-CHING
Edited by - iching on 23 March 2001 19:30:18
jst2laws

ICHING
"i can't help having the premonition that you may be about to receive a crash course in understanding this"
I anticipate a beating. I try to see some good in all things. I appreciate the many things I have learned as a JW. I came from a religion that is at least as tainted in corruption and false teachings, even conspiracy to hide the truth as is also true of the WTBTS, yet I appreciate what I learned from both. Show me a perfect religion and I'm ready to jump. My faith is based in the Bible, which gives me appreciation for what I have learned as a Witness but also puts me at odds with the borg. Even if I am caught and expelled, I cannot deny that I have learned much from Jehovah's Witnesses. So I risk a beating from my brothers, as well as
a 'crash course' from friends here. I'm not ignorant of the facts but expect disapproval from both sides.
Who well be the kinder?
jst2laws
dreamer

The WTS does have a lot of sound biblical-based doctrine. The problem is, so do many faiths. Looking at certain aspects of any religious group, one can usually find some convincing doctrinal arguments: It is not the 'whole' picture which is the unattractive part.
I found that when things which I had beleived so fervently, such as:
i 1914 invisible second coming
ii 144000 anointed class
iii No Blood transfusions
came into question, I realised that there were many things which I had beleived, and preached, which I no longer did. These were scriptural issues. I saw conflicts with WTS reasoning, and what I was reading in the bible.
Did this cause me to reject the whole faith? Well, no. The more I thought about what I had been taught through the society, the more I realised that I was just accepting their conclusions. I slowly began to see the power that this organisation had on influencing, not only my thoughts, but my beliefs.
In short, I did not reject the WTS beacuase of scriptural conflicts. I feel that, when you start to question the very reasons for your own beliefs, you can no longer be as confident as is needed to preach a particular doctrine.
aChristian

: this good news is to be preached in all the earth. With all its flaws, no one else is doing this internationally .... except Jehovah’s Witnesses. ...Who else is teaching so many of the basic truths World Wide?
You are badly mistaken if you believe that Jehovah's Witnesses preach the "Good News of the kingdom" referred to in the New Testament.
Jehovah's Witnesses tell us, "Christ and his apostles preached the good news of the kingdom." And they assure us, "We preach the good news of the kingdom." The problem is that simply attaching the same title to their message does not mean the message preached by Jehovah's Witnesses is the same message that was preached by the apostles.
"The good news of the kingdom" preached by Jehovah's Witnesses is that "the kingdom of God" is a heavenly government that was set up in the year 1914 AD, and that this heavenly government will soon bring paradise conditions to the earth. Of course, an often unspoken part of this "good news" is that this same government, in order to establish these paradise conditions, will soon kill almost everyone on the face of the earth except those who now submit themselves to the spiritual authority of the Watchtower Society.
Now, I ask you, is this really the message that the apostles preached? Was this their "good news of the kingdom"? Did they spend their time telling people about an invisible heavenly government that would be set up in the year 1914 and would shortly thereafter bring paradise conditions to the earth? The Bible contains no record of them having preached such a message. It tells us what the message was that the apostles preached. As the apostle Paul said, "We preach Christ crucified." In fact, Paul said that in his ministry he had "resolved to know nothing" "except Jesus Christ and him crucified." (1 Cor. 1:23, 2:2) The apostles spent all their time telling people about Jesus Christ and what He had done for them. The "good news" they preached was that if people would only believe in their hearts that Jesus Christ's sacrificial death was a sufficient payment for all their sins, God would forgive them completely for all of their unrighteousness, and He would then give them the gift of eternal life.
This is the "good news" which the apostles preached. And since it is the only "good news" they preached, it must be the "good news of the kingdom" which Jesus said would be preached "in all the inhabited earth, for a witness to all the nations." (Matt. 24:14)
But how can the good news of God's forgiveness which He grants us because of Jesus Christ's sacrificial death be the "good news of the kingdom"? After all, this message says nothing about any kind of government. And isn't a kingdom a government?
To answer these questions we must understand what "God's kingdom" is. Though Jehovah's Witnesses are fond of repeating the words, "A kingdom is a government," that is not a completely accurate statement. At least not according to the dictionary's definition of a "kingdom." Dictionaries tell us that a "kingdom" is "a political or territorial unit that is ruled by a king or a queen." (The American Heritage Dictionary) Now, the government which rules a kingdom is certainly a part of the kingdom, but only a part. It is not the kingdom. When Herod Antipas told the daughter of Herodias, "Whatever you ask I will give you, up to half my kingdom," was he offering to split his governmental authority with her, to make her his coregent? No, he was not. He was offering to give her a part of what he and his government owned and ruled over. To him his kingdom was everything belonging to and controlled by him and his government.(Mark 6:23)
Clearly, the word "kingdom," as used today and in the Bible, primarily refers to a domain over which a king rules. With this in mind, what do the words "the kingdom of God," as used by Jesus and his apostles, refer to? What is the domain over which Jesus Christ now rules? Jesus Christ now rules over all those who have submitted themselves to His rulership by accepting Him as their Lord. The domain over which Jesus Christ now rules is His entire body of believers worldwide, His Church.
So, The kingdom of God is Christ's Church. Not only is Christ's Church the most widely understood definition of the kingdom of God but it is also the only definition that fully fits the way the term is used in the Bible. Consider, for instance, Revelation 5: 9,10. There we read, referring to Jesus Christ, "With your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. And you have made them to be a kingdom."
Like any kingdom, the kingdom of God, Christ's Church, is made up primarily of the realm over which its king rules. In this case, Christians. And like any kingdom, the kingdom of God, Christ's Church, has its king dwelling within it. In this case, Jesus Christ.(see Colossians 1:27) Since the kingdom of God is Christ's Church, and since Christians themselves make up Christ's Church, the "good news of the kingdom" is the good news that is preached by Christians. The word "of," here used as part of the phrase "the good news of the kingdom," does not mean "about" the kingdom. Rather, it is here used to refer to the good news belonging to the kingdom and coming from the kingdom. Just as, "the seat of Moses" belonged to Moses (Mt. 23:1 NWT), and "Jesus of Nazareth" came from Nazareth (Mt. 26:71). Today that good news is the same good news that the apostles preached nearly 2,000 years ago. And it is the same good news that has been preached by Christians ever since.
That good news is this: The king of our kingdom, Jesus Christ willingly died a torturous death on a Roman cross for us. He did so because He loves us very much. And because He loves us, He wants to give every one of us eternal life with Him. You see, Jesus knew that God's clearly stated penalty for any form of unrighteousness was death. And He knew that only those who are viewed by God as being completely righteous are considered by Him to be worthy of immortality. So, Jesus offered God His own sinless life, as payment for all of our sins. And God accepted that payment. Now everyone who believes in their heart that Jesus Christ's death was accepted by God as payment in full for all their unrighteousness will, after they die, be brought back to life by God and be given an immortal, imperishable body. As proof that God intends to keep these fantastic promises, and that He has the power to do so, God raised Jesus Christ from the dead on the third day following His crucifixion and gave Him just such a body. Jesus has also promised to return. Christians who are alive at the time of His return will never die at all. At that time Christ will instantly give each one of them an immortal, imperishable body like His own and like the ones already given to His resurrected followers. All glorified Christians will then serve as kings and priests with Christ. ( John 3:16, 36; John 11:25, 26; Acts 10:43; Romans 3:23-26; 4:23-25; 6:23; 10:9; 1Corinthians 15:42-54; 1Thessalonians 4:13-17; 1Peter 2: 22; 1John 2:2; 4:10; 5:17; Revelation 5:9,10; 20:6)
This is the good news of the kingdom of God. This is the good news preached by Christians. It is not, however, the good news preached by Jehovah's Witnesses. For, unlike the "good news" of Jehovah's Witnesses, the good news preached by the apostles and by all other Christians for nearly 2,000 years says nothing about an invisible government established in heaven in the year 1914 AD. It also says nothing about how this government will direct the efforts of millions of mortal believers as they work hard to bring paradise conditions to the earth and themselves to a state of human perfection. And it says nothing about how the only ones who will initially be allowed to live in this "paradise" will be people who totally submit themselves to the spiritual authority of a small group of men who run a publishing empire called the Watchtower, Bible and Tract Society.
The fact of the matter is the "good news" preached by Jehovah's Witnesses flat out contadicts virtually every aspect of the "good news" preached by the apostles. For Jehovah's Witnesses teach that those who become Christians today are not God's sons, are not Christ's brothers, do not have Jesus Christ as their mediator, are not fully forgiven for their sins, are not fully reconciled to God, are not declared righteous by God, are not a part of the body of Christ, will never become incorruptible, will never be given immortality, are not born again, are not anointed by God's Holy Spirit, are not baptized by God's Holy Spirit, will not rule with Christ when he returns, will not be part of the first resurrection, and are not a part of Christ's New Covenant.
Clearly, Jehovah's Witnesses preach a "good news" far different from the good news preached by the apostles. And because they do, Galatians 1:8, 9 tells us we must reject their message. There the apostle Paul wrote, "Even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel (good news) other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"
Farkel

: So would it be wrong to accept the fact that the WTS, despite its flaws, has many good scriptural truths to share. Can we reject what they have pressed to the world:
I suggest you please re-read AlanF's comments. The problem is the WTS has spend over eighty years vilifying other Christian faiths and even haughtily MOCKING the many good things those faiths have done. Taking care of millions and millions of hungry and sick people, for example. The WTS sarcastically claims they're making "rice" Christians. But now, the tide has turned and the WTS is facing the same music it has loudly and harshly played for those eighty or so years. Many of their defenders are crying for mercy, yet the WTS has not extended one OUNCE of mercy to those who disagree with them or believe even slightly different than them.
I was a JW for over two decades and pioneered for years. I know. I saw it firsthand. The elders would get together and when they spoke about the leader of the Catholic Church, they would call him "The Poop" and laugh. We were taught by word and by example to despise those who believed differently.
The WTS has held other faiths up to the highest of standards, and can't even measure up to those standards as AlanF pointed out, and well-meaning and decent people like yourself who are defending their good points have a hard time understanding why so many people would dislike the leaders of your religion and what they've made many of their followers become. For a good reminder of the kind of hate your religion has dished out towards those of other faiths, I suggest you read Joe Rutherford's book "Enemies." One would be hard-pressed to find a book more full of hate than that one.
:...God has a name,
Only JWs have made such a big point about God's name, yet they won't even bother to use the most-commonly accepted pronunciation of it; preferring instead to use the "common" pronunciation. Let me ask you this: do you think God is so puny that he really cares that people make such a big deal about his name? He didn't even bother to make absolutely certain that there was no question about how his name should be spelled and pronounced, did he? That being the case, isn't there a big hint here that he's not that concerned that we know his exact name? When you pray to THE Creator, just who are you praying to? Certainly not Baal. When you pray to THE Heavenly Father of all mankind, surely God knows you are calling to Him.
:His Kingdom is to solve man’s problems,
That is certainly not a unique JW belief, but JW's do put more of a materialistic spin on it than others: a beautiful paradise, human perfection, perfect health, and everlasting HUMAN life. (Not to mention possessing all those beautiful homes and luxury cars in Beverly Hills.)
: the Earth is to become a paradise as God purposed, man will live endlessly on Earth as intended,
The only problem about that is the JW leaders are so impatient for all that to happen that they predict when it should happen. They've done that about a dozen times and they've always been wrong.
: those who died will return in a resurrection of the dead rather that burn in hell,
That's all fine and dandy too, but it has nothing to do with living and everything to do with dying. We'll all eventually find out (or not) what happens when we die. JWs and their leaders need to spend their time learning to live the lives they have and let death and its consequences take care of itself.
:and this good news is to be preached in all the earth.
It's NOT good news to six BILLION people including infant children. They will all be slaughtered. That's the part of the "Good News(tm)" that JWs don't like to discuss. It's only good news to THEM and not even ALL of them, either. The JW religion is the most self-serving and arrogant religion that I know about. Even all the preaching work is done because they want to save their own butts and they are told they can't save their own butts if they don't get out and get new butts in the Kingdom Halls. For the vast majority of JWs, field service is neither joyous nor rewarding. It's hard work and most wouldn't do it if they could get away with not doing it.
: With all its flaws, no one else is doing this internationally, staying out of politics and wars in each nation, except Jehovah’s Witnesses.
The Quakers and many other pacifist groups do the very same thing. And they don't wake people up on Sunday morning to tell them their going to get slaughtered by God if they don't join their faiths.
I do appreciate your comments, and perhaps I've been unnecessarily harsh on you. I don't mean anything personally towards you. I'm just delivering my version of a wake-up call. In my opinion there is just not enough good in the JW faith to make up for the bad. It's time for new wineskins. The old ones are rotten. Jesus said that, not me. :)
Farkel
ozziepost

G'day again guys,
jst2laws: just a P.S. to my earlier post. On this week's Service Meeting in our congregation, the elder delivering the part "Make Good Use of the 2001 Yearbook" when discussing the persecution of our brothers in one country said: "Only Jehovah's people could survive". Now is that true? Doesn't investigation reveal that many Christians around the world in recent times are being persecuted, some even martyred for their belief in Christ. So again we need to ask of such a statement at the meeting: Is it true? How do we know? Have we investigated for ourselves?
This same elder, when discussing the situation in another land, stated: "Not one of Jehovah's Witnesses died, showing that Jehovah was backing them". Really? What of the examples of Witnesses being killed for their faith that are recorded in the Society's publications.
So often meeting parts are riddled with lies and distortions. Now you might say that we get spiritually fed at the meetings, but I ask, What type of diet is it that includes lies and distortions?
Ozzie
ozziepost

G'day aChristian,
Just wanted to thank you for such a fine, well-thought out post above.
God bless,
ozzie
ICHING

2laws
thanks for the reply and absolutely no animosity intended in my prior posts if they were perceived that way by yourself
i agree that perhaps one redeeming quality of wtbts association is a the gaining of at least a basic (if not distorted) familiarity with the bible
(wtbts tampering within the NWT is a whole subject in itself and one i shall leave to others far more capapble than myself here to expound upon)
as mentioned by others - gaining a familiarity with the bible is par for the course with any christian faith
if an organisation is attempting to portray itself as a christian faith there are certain foundations of that faith which must be included in the teachings of that organisation or the facade becomes too obvious
it's hard to preach christianity without christ (though the wtbts does an outstanding job of covering this fundemental biblical teaching up)
the question seems to be is the form of christianity presented by the wtbts a replica of that presented by the bible?
without the org/mediatorship man made concept in the mix the message of the bible is very simple
with it you have your present mental/spiritual condition
the insidious nature of this condition though is that it's almost impossible to see if you've got it and then if you can see it you believe it's not that serious
how the hell i managed to escape god only knows
like many here have expressed i had no inclination to read the bible for many many years after giving myself permission to leave the wtbts
their interpretation of the bible completely ruined the bible reading experience for me
it's ok to get off the treadmill for a while even if it's just to see what it feels like
imho
I-CHING

In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

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