There is an update to this conversation below ... found here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/9/96258/1643602/post.ashx#1643602 So tonight I decided I could wait no longer. I had unbelieving JW friends and family knowing that I have been stalling for like a month or more. We have the CO this week and tonight is the Service Meeting and Theocratic Ministry School.
I asked my wife, "Is it the Daniel Book tonight or Ministry School?"
She said, "I think it is the ministry school - at least I hope so because I didn't study the Daniel book."
I said, "Hey, did you ever do any research on the date stuff for Daniel?"
She said, yeah she had and it was kinda confusing and she was having a hard time figureing out the accession year system and some other things.
I explained how it worked and she thought that was cool.
I figured now was as good a time as any, so I had a short mental conversation with myself about what I was about to do, and bit my lip, then finally said:
"I am kinda looking forward to this study because they talk about 607 BC alot, and I have been researching the dates stuff and I am having trouble finding anything that talks about 607 BC."
There. I said it.
She said something to the effect of (I'm paraphrasing): "Yeah, I thought it was kind of confusing because it is hard to determine what kingships started when, and if they were ACTUALLY kings or just ACTING AS Kings."
I said that was interesting, and that I thought some of the stuff in the Society's literature was a little confusing because they say 607 BC is the destruction of Jerusalem but all the history books and the contemporary records say different.
My wife said that it was probably because it took a lot of years to get everyone out of Jerusalem so it depends on which date you are looking at for the actual destruction of Jerusalem.
I said that was true, it did take a long time, but the Society specifically says that the temple being destroyed in 607 BC was a pivotal point, and it signified the end of pure worship. And this is how they determine 1914, so it is a very pivotal year.
She then went into a long explanation of how the Jews were taken out at different times - there were multiple deportations, and Daniel was taken early and it had to be 607 because of Daniel's age and stuff. Perhaps the Society is dating from the very first deportation.
I just listened. Some of the stuff she said didn't really apply - and to be honest - some of it I was not sure if it did or not. So I took a cue from someone on this list who once told me that I needed to think and speak like a lawyer in these situations - DO NOT raise a question that I don't know the answer to 100%.
Bear in mind, during this whole conversation there is NO TENSION WHATSOEVER. We are just talking. It took EVERYTHING I HAD not to jump on a couple of WT phrases she used - one that "Scholar" uses alot - "reliable bible chronology". (More on this in a moment.)
I started to worry big time because she was calmly sort of gently refuting almost everything I was gonna say before I even said it!
She then started talking about the 20-year gap, and she said if there was a 20 year gap, that maybe there would be new light that would account for the 20-year gap. (I had not yet mentioned anything about a 20-year gap to this point! The girl had been doing her research!) She said that maybe 1934 could be a pivotal year because that is when we took on the name Jehovah's Witnesses and started ramping up the preaching work.
I just said, "Yeah, that's interesting isn't it?" (Note: Of course, the name Jehovah's Witnesses came around in 1931, not 1934. Also, there is the 3.5 year inspection process that supposedly ended in 1919 which is pivotal - but I let those go for now.)
At this point I was feeling pretty beaten down. But I smiled and kept calm. My wife was also calm. She said she saw a real good Jewish timeline on a Jewish history site on the Internet and she wished she had bookmarked it. A few minutes later she went over to the computer and found it.
She called me over and showed me the timeline.
The timeline on the Jewish history site was great, because it agreed with secular history and it agreed with the KISS method of determining 607 is bunk. She showed me a couple of things on it, like where daniel was taken in 605 to Babylon.
I showed her how the list of Kings I gave her matches up with the Jewish history site. I also showed her on the KISS SHeet that according to established chronology, Nebuchadnezzar wasn't even king in 607.
The two things she kept coming back to were the "reliable bible chronology" thing and that maybe the Society's 607 BC prophecy interpretation didn't necessarily mean the destruction of the "temple" per se, but instead just the time they started to exercise their authority over the Jews. She also said that it was the ONLY place the 70 years could be applied. She said, everyone agrees on the 539 date for the fall of Babylon, but not everyone agrees with the exact date of the destruction of Jerusalem - so therefore the Society goes on RELIABLE BIBLE CHRONOLOGY.
I asked her if she remembered the picture of the Nabonidus Chronicle in the Daniel book. She said yes. I said, that is a pivotal piece of evidence that the Society uses as PROOF POSITIVE of 539. This same document also specifies Nebuchadnezzars 18th year of rule being in 586/87.
I pointed out that everything the Society writes SPECIFICALLY SAYS that the temple being destroyed was the pivotal event. I pointed out the Bible Story book where it shows everyone leaving Jerusalem with the city in flames in the background - and that this is what the Society says happened in 607 BC. I pointed to 587 on the Jewish timeline and said THIS is what the Society says happened in 607.
I also pointed out how that actually WASN'T the only place that 70 years could be applied - I showed her how 586 to 516 (rebuilding work completed) was also 70 years.
I also pointed out the scriptures in Jeremiah and II Kings about the Egyptian Pharoads and their chronology and how it supports 586.
At this point she said, "Well, maybe the Society shouldn't be pumping up 607 BC like that if it is such a shaky date."
Whoa. I couldn't believe my ears.
I said how that is true especially considering that this chronology is how they come up with 1914.
She then went into how it had to be 607 because 1914 is SUCH a pivotal year. I agreed with her it was indeed a momentous year. Then she mentioned WW1 starting in 1914.
I said I had been reading some books that pointed out that more Americans were killed in the Civil War than all wars combined up until the Vietnam War. There were some other wars with estimates that half of the earths population was killed in some wars.
She said that it wasn't just WW1 but many other things, like natural disasters and such, began to increase then, Spanish Influenza, etc.
I told her that there were many plights and droughts and natural disasters all happening at the same time before 1914. THere were some wars and crusades that killed millions of people ... all before 1914.
At that point I almost said too much I think ... I was about to go into full release and the information was about to come spewing out. So I stopped.
I just shrugged my shoulders and said it is weird how the dates all don't match up, and that I have just been researching is all, and will continue to do so.
She said, "These are all great questions. We should ask somebody about them." (She actually said this a few times throughout the night.)
She suggested her father (who is an elder). This is great because I figured that would be the next person she would go to, and he is a very nice guy and will actually be interested in what I have to say. There have been some indicators now that he is in his 50's, that not all has gone as promised by the Society. He also has some big complaints about elder bodies in general. So it should be interesting.
I want to thank everyone on JWD (especially Scholar) for all the help and prep work. My method of talking to her included almost 100% everything that I learned on this site:
- Do not ask a question you do not know the answer to 100%.
- Discuss in a way that places the burden of proof on the Society, not you.
- Always remain calm and nonconfrontational.
- Do not move on to another point until the point you are on is clarified.
- Stick with one issue at a time ... don't start jumping around to every JW teaching.
- Try to get the issue down to JWs vs. the Bible .... which will you choose?
The discussions are FAR FROM OVER. But the door has been opened and the questions have been raised. When we went to the meeting last night she hardly listened to the CO at all and was reading from first and second KINGS all night. I held her hand quite often and rubbed her back during the meeting a little bit. I'll bring her some flowers when I get home tonight.
Where she stands right now:
- She does not think the temple was destroyed in 607 BC (this is a good thing)
- She still has not fully comprehended yet the Society shifts the reigns of kings to fit 607 yet.
- She is not sure that the "destruction" meant "destruction of the temple". It does, but that is something she can research.
As far as 607 goes, we got pretty far along, but there is much more that can be shown, and I am justing giving her some time to digest it and research some more now.
I'll keep everyone posted on the progress.
Thanks,
-ithinkisee
PS: There is an update to this conversation ... found here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/9/96258/1643602/post.ashx#1643602