15th July WT ...Islam is the King of the North??

by caspian 76 Replies latest jw friends

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    If it was the USSR that fulfilled verses 40-43, how can some other "King" fulfill the next two verses? It seems to me that verses 44 and 45 are describing an action that continues from the previous verses and hence would describe the actions of the same entity, not a new or different one.

    I just took a look at the online version of the Daniel book (1999). They make a big hullabaloo about how the kings in the vision "change identities" and how new kingdoms and rulers take on the "role" of the King of the North, etc. Of course, there is nothing at all in the vision narrative itself that signals a shift in identities. Instead this is something that is imposed on the text from outside, in order to make it fit individuals and kingdoms later than Antiochus Epiphanes. To be fair, this hermeneutic mistake was a mainstay of Protestant (and of course Adventist) interpretation. The Hebrew philologist S. R. Driver comments as follows: "Some of the older interpreters supposed that at v. 36 there was a transition from Antiochus to the future Antichrist. But whatever typical significance may attach to the whole character of Antiochus, it can hardly be legitimate, in a continuous description, with no apparent change of subject, to refer part to the type and part to the antitype. Such a transition is 'wholly unfounded and arbitrary' (Westcott)." (p. 497) However the WTS current interpretation is even more extreme: instead of one change of subject, the Society has posited a half dozen changes in identity, with no basis other than mere stipulation.

  • heathen
    heathen

    Leolaia--- We can bet it wasn't spirit direction since the WTBTS has been playing down that angle here lately. It does seem as if someone in the writing department got a little carried away since Daniel does talk about the beast like governments past present and future they may have deemed it plausible to insert these far reaching conclusions. It doesn't surprise me that the text of the narrative is in different languages since it was copied so many times , I don't think the original exists , unless I'm mistaken here . I just love the way they concluded that lesson in the Daniel book by saying let's not speculate but then they go ahead and declare the US as the king of the south.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I wonder who first made up the idea that the US is the King of the South? I bet that notion goes back to Adventism.

  • r51785
    r51785

    Photo

    The Original "King of the North"

  • Max Divergent
    Max Divergent

    I remember it as being the Anglo-Americal dual world power, the UK and US. The 1958 book said the power balance would shift from the UK to the US before the end, and that's happened.

    What might fit better with WT ideas is to make the US the last King of the North, the last one standing in the struggle of nations... the one Michael finally has to attack.

    That shift (from free South to totalitarian North) could be either: 1) pinpointed on attacking ancient holy places under false pretences and in the face of the impotent condemnation of the rest of the world; or 2) could be foreshadowed as the ultimate end of the current Middle East/Terror/Iraq/Israel situation.

    Presumably, the WTS might also say that the final battle starts against radical Isalm, but ends with the JW's, who also preach for theocratic rule to replace human government by way of Holy War.

    That's just my speculation on the whirrings of the WTS collective hive... it'd give real immediacy and a collective threat close to home for JW's in the West. It'd trigger all sorts of fear reactions amongst the Bro's globally (it's put them on the 'wrong side' of the War on Terror, for one thing) and it could be dragged on for as long as the War on Terror and all other Middle East issues go on for... and that could be decades.

    Then they just need a couple of creative paragraphs to link the commencement of this final Act in the Drama of Nations (I think they called it somthing like that...) with asupposed commencement of 'Armageddon' in 2004, being 1914 + 90 years - one modern life span. Then they overcome most of their chronology problems too.

    Max - of the frustrated Watchtower writer class

  • Erich
    Erich

    Max

    US is the new K.o.N.

    Matches absolutely with the opinions of mine. The war in the Dan.11:40 just happens, and ends up with US standing alone against the whole world ("there will be no helper for him"). Or look at: "Lybians and Ethiopians will be at his steps": This verse has surprisingly a real "wordly" fulfillment, because in the days when USSR had been the K.o.N. they politically supported the radical socialistic group (the KoN), but now, Lybia and Ethiopia did a sharp political turn around.

    Possible a further "King of the North" will come up after US for a very short time before harmagedon. Is it China, or the EU? Maybe. We dont know. All these countries are part of the UN. But the Islam cannot be the K.o.N. It is no political reign. It is part of Babylon the Great.

    E.

  • City Fan
    City Fan

    Heathen,

    CityFan--- I gather you are saying saying you don't believe that Daniel wrote that part ? If he did it was written in the 6th or 7th century bce . I don't know why anyone would want to tamper with that part of the bible so think Daniel did write it while in babylonian captivity.

    When I first left the JWs I started looking at bible prophecies to see if they actually came true or not. For example if Daniel really did predict the Roman Empire and Anglo-American world power then surely I would not be able to disregard these bible writers.

    The first book I looked at was Daniel. What I found in this book, especially in the later chapters, was that it was far more accurate about the history of the 2nd century BC than it was of the 6th century BC. Take the chapter on the King of the North. Daniel 10:31 says that the KOTN will "take away the continual burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate."

    Now look at 1 Maccabees 1:54 which states "On the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the hundred and forty-fifth year, king Antiochus set up the abominable idol of desolation upon the altar of God?. That was in December 167 BC. If you compare chapter 10 of Daniel with the Syrian Wars between the Seleucids and the Ptolemies, it is identical, at least up to verse 40 where the writer tries to predict the death of Antiochus in a third Egyptian campaign which never happened. He died in Persis before he could return to Judea. The writer must have been unaware of the death of Epiphanes when this chapter was written around 164 BC.

    Daniel 12:9 is a literary device used to explain why the book had been unknown until the time of composition. The work was presented as written by Daniel 400 years earlier but had been kept secret and sealed.

    CF.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I have my copy of SR Driver's Introduction to the Literature of the Old Testament . Here are some main reasons why Daniel dates to the period of Antiochus Epiphanes, 164-163 BC and not the Neo-Babylonian period:

    1. The position of the book in the Jewish canon, not among the Neviim or Prophets but in the miscellaneous collection of late writings called the Ketuvim or Hagiographa, and among the latest of these, in proximity to Esther. The division known as the Prophets was formed prior to the Hagiographa and had the Daniel existed at that time, it would have been ranked as a work of a prophet and included among the former. Daniel and Esther are also similar to each as the two works in the LXX that are heavily interpolated in the Greek versions.

    2. Jesus ben Sirach, writting c. 200 BC, in his enumeration of Israelite-Jewish worthies (ch. 44-50), mentions Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the twelve minor prophets, but is silent as to Daniel. This corresponds to the Jewish canon of the Prophets, but again ignores Daniel.

    3. The "Chaldeans" are synonymous in Daniel 1:4, 2:2, etc. with the caste of wise men. This sense is unknown in Assyrian-Babylonian usage but is characteristic of the Persian and Hellenistic periods.

    4. Belshazzar is represented as the "king" of Babylon, and Nebuchadnezzer is spoken throughout ch. 5 as his father. In point of fact, Nabonidus was the last king of the Babylon; he was a usuper, not related to Nebuchadnezzer and his son was Belshazzar. The mistake Daniel makes is characteristic of a later period when the facts have been forgotten and not of someone personally acquainted with these individuals. The exquisite detail Daniel has of the Hellenistic period but gross mistakes of the Neo-Babylonian period is another sign that it belongs to the later period.

    5. Darius, son of Ahasuerus (Xerxes), a "Mede," after the death of Belshazzar is made "king over the realm of the Chaldeans" (5:31; 6:1; 9:1; 11:1), who in 6:1 organizes the empire into 120 satrapies and becomes sole ruler of the Babylonian empire (6:25), while in reality, Darius Hystaspis, who organized the Persian empire in satrapies, was the father, not the son, of Xerxes, and he reconquered Babylon in 521 and again in 515 BC, not in 535 BC as Daniel would have it. Again, this is a confusion arising from the passage of time and is hardly what someone witnessing the Fall of Babylon would claim.

    6.In 9:2 it is stated that Daniel "understood by the books (bsprym)" the 70 years according to Jeremiah that Jerusalem should be desolated. The expression used, equivalent to modern "Scriptures", implies that the prophesies of Jeremiah formed part of a canon of sacred books which most likely had not formed by 536 BC.

    7. The number of Persian words in the book, especially in the Aramaic part, is remarkable. That such words should be found in books written after the Persian empire was organized and when Persian influences prevailed, is not more than would be expected and should not at any rate have been used by Daniel under Babylonian supremacy.

    8. Not only does Daniel contain Persian words, but it contains at least three Greek words: kitharos = kitharis (3:5, 7, 10, 15), psanterin = psalterion (3:5, 7, 10, 15), and sumponyah = symphonia (3:5, 15). The use of these three words fixes the date of the historical portions of Daniel after the time of Alexander the Great.

    9. The Aramaic of Daniel is a Western Aramaic dialect of the type spoken in Palestine, known from inscriptions dating to 3rd cent. BC to the 2nd cent. AD and also of the Targums of Onkelos and Jonathan. Its use by a native Judahite in the 6th cent. BC would be utterly inexplicable.

    10. The Hebrew of Daniel resembles that of the age subsequent to Nehemiah, containing many words otherwise known from Rabbinical Hebrew (sp. the Mishnah), or common only to the Mishnah and Ezra, Chronicles, Nehemiah, Esther. A list can be provided.

    11. The theology of the book of Daniel points to a later age than that of the exile, specifically 200-100 BC. The doctrines of the Messiah (the "Son of Man" concept), of angels (referred to occasionally as "Watchers"), of the resurrection, and of a judgment on the world, are taught with greater distinctiveness and in a more developed form than elsewhere in the OT, with features approximating to those met with in the earlier parts of 1 Enoch (100 BC-50 AD), Jubilees, and in the Dead Sea Scrolls (200 BC-50 AD).

    12. The interest of the book manifestly culminates in the relations subsisting between the Jews and Antiochus Epiphanes. Antiochus is the subject of 8:9-14, 23-25. The survey of Syrian and Egyptian history of the Seleucids in ch. 11 leads up to a detailed description of Antiochus' reign in v. 21-45 and then the persecution which the Jews experienced at his hands. It is incredible for a 6th century prophet living in the Neo-Babylonian period to display no interest in the welfare, or prospects of his contemporaries, that his hopes and Messianic visions should not attach themselves to the imminent return of the exiles to the land of their fathers but to a deliverance in the distant, remote future. It is also remarkable that these prophecies of the remote future in Daniel are so minute in detail with regard to Antiochus' reign, down to the period of his persecution where actual events are decribed with surprising distinctness (unlike prophecies of the remote future in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah), yet suddenly at this point the distinctness ceases and the prophecy shifts into an ideal representation of the Messianic future. Daniel's perspective, then, is of someone writing in the midst of the persecution itself, and views the Messianic Age as following closely on the heels of the Antiochean persecution -- a fulfillment that does not in fact come to pass. The failed prophecy regarding a final attack on Judah and the death of Antiochus in such an attack was not fulfilled (and neither did the resurrection and the enthronment of the Messiah occur), and this quite securely fixes the date of the book between December 164 and April 163 BC.

    The book is a classic apocalyptic pseudegraph, exactly in the vein of 2 Baruch, 4 Ezra and other writings. It became part of the OT on the sheer weight of its popularity. But by being placed near the end of the Hagiographa (9th out of the 11 books, or 10th out of the 11 in the Aleppo Codex), we can see that it just barely made it into the OT canon.

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    What a ridiculous conclusion - F.Franz' ghost lives on, still murmuring its ludicrous fantasies.

    CZAR

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Thanks Leolaia, for those details about Daniel being a composite. We owe a lot to researcher with a keen eye for details.

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