by caspian 76 Replies latest jw friends
So, if Islam is the "King of the north", then:
40 | And at the time of the end, the king of the south (USA) will make an attack on him(ISLAM): and the king of the north(ISLAM) will come against him like a storm-wind, with war-carriages and horsemen and donkeys and numbers of rowboats; and he will go through many lands like overflowing waters. So the war isn't over yet... |
I had a rummage through my hard drive and found this quote, which I believe comes from the Daniel book, page 284, perhaps someone could check for me?:
With the disbanding of the Soviet Union in December 1991, the king of the north suffered a serious setback. Who will be this king when Daniel 11:44, 45 is fulfilled? Will he be identified with one of the countries that were part of the former Soviet Union? Or will he change identity completely, as he has done a number of times before? Will the development of nuclear weapons by additional nations result in a new arms race and have a bearing on the identity of that king? Only time will provide answers to these questions. We are wise not to speculate. When the king of the north embarks on his final campaign, the fulfilment of prophecy will be clearly discerned by all who have Bible-based insight.?
See "Kings in Daniel Chapter 11," on page 284
It's a failed prophecy. The Maccabeean revolt did not bring about the Messiah and resurrection of the dead, and the Hasmonaean dynasty was short-lived. And ever since then, Jews and Christians have tried to identify the king with someone else, someone perhaps expected to be worse than Antiochus Epiphanes, but nothing ever seems to turn out the way ppl hoped, and so the identity of the king keeps changing and morphing as history marches on....
If the wts does name Islam (or Islamic fundamentalism) as King Uh Duh North, my guess is that they will try to connect the dots from the USSR via the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, perhaps pointing out that the Soviet effort was frustrated by the Mujahideen, including Osama bin Laden.
But again, such an application would be a huge reach - something that obviosuly the wts has been good at in the past.
It may well be failed prophecy, or at an least extremely problematic one, especially once speculation on application goes outside the realm of the original Selucid and Ptolomaic powers.
Actually as far as Ptolemaic and Seleucid powers are concerned it is not prophecy at all, only history disguised as prophecy.
Indeed, Narkissos, but at a certain point the history ends (in 11:44) and then it goes forth into prophecy about the future (which fails miserably at that). In my opinion, Daniel (or this section of Daniel, at least) could only have been written between December 164 BC and April 163 BC. My guess is that it was written close to January 163 BC, shortly after the rededication of the Temple (the time of Hannukah) and before Antiochus Epiphanes had a chance to return to Jerusalem in a "great war" to reclaim his power over Judea. His expetition to Parthia and Persia in winter 163 BC is probably what is alluded to in v. 44, but Antiochus never returned to the "Land of Holy Splendour" as v. 45 predicts, and he certainly did not die in an attempt to regain Judea as v. 45 also predicts (compare 8:25; 12:7). And we can also be sure that the angel Michael never assumed power (12:1), and the resurrection of the dead also never took place (12:2-3).
My guess is that January 163 BC was an extremely tense time. People had no idea how long the Temple would be restored, or how long Judean sovereignty would last. Finally after centuries of subjugation, fulfullment of the old exilic and post-exilic Messianic prophecies seemed to be at hand! Great things were about to happen. The kingdoms would surely get what's coming to them for what they did to the Temple and to the saints who were martyred in the persecutions. And it certainly was expected that Antiochus would not take this defeat in stride, that he would return in great vengeance to reclaim what was taken from him. For the author of Daniel, it literally was the end of history. I think the months of tense waiting to see what happens next would have been the perfect milieu for the book to spread like wildfire. Too bad things ended so anti-climactically tho. But because of the vagueness of the vision's conclusion, and because of the popularity of the book, it was ripe for reinterpretation as generations of Jews and Christians have done since.
There is a link on this page to a talk where Ciro Aulicino discusses the King of the North and the Muslims:
http://www.randytv.com/wteliminated.htm
Anyone who has been associated with the Watchtower for some time is aware of how they view the United Nations as being the prophetic ?wild beast? of Rev. 13:17 that stands opposed to God?s Kingdom under the ?anointed remnant,? empowered directly by Satan himself (Gog of Magog of Rev. 20:8). The United Nations was due sometime soon to be empowered by the United States and Great Britain, and to turn on ?Jehovah?s people? to annihilate them.
In the Oct/Dec 2001 issue of the Free Minds Journal it was reported that the Watchtower had secretly joined up with the United Nations as an NGO (Non-Governmental Organization) with the purpose of helping spread the doctrine and agenda of the United Nations (with benefits to themselves, of course). When this was discovered and exposed in the newspapers and on the internet, the Watchtower Public Relations Department was quick to disassociate themselves from the United Nations, and issue a special message to any branch members or elders who needed to provide a response to the news media. The blatantly dishonest answer was that they joined to obtain a ?library card? in order to do research. A similar letter was sent out to certain inquiries on the subject.
Shortly thereafter it was widely publicized and documented that not only did the WT not have to join the UN just to get a library card, but that the Watchtower magazine had already been writing articles that subtly supported the United Nations and its agenda! This is required of any NGO associated with the UN. One of the articles is even listed on the UN website. (http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/materials/articles.htm)
While at first it seemed that perhaps it was not an actual change of direction, but only an embarrassing affair with the ?wild beast? itself, it now appears quite plainly that the WT no longer states that the UN is the ?wild beast? and even further, that it would only be speculation to say who it would be to launch a future attack on the Watchtower organization! This, coupled with an odd suggestion by Bethel leader Ciro Aulicino in October 2001 that the Muslims may very well be part of the ?king of the North? that will turn and attack Jehovah?s people! (The "King of the North" is generally identified as the United Nations; more specifically as a totalitarian element of it.) Yet Ciro was one of the directors who actually signed on with the United Nations as an NGO representative! Talk about duplicity and confusion at Bethel!
For a full treatment on the Watchtower's identity of the "King of the North" and "King of the South," read this article.
Ciro Aulicino?s lecture can be listened to here.
In this issue we do not review their past hatred for the United Nations, but the major about?face reflected in the Watchtower of June 1, 2003, where they say it is wrong to speculate who the king of the North represents (after years of asserting such things themselves).
When you also read about the attempt to sway European governments to accept the WT as a bona-fide religion by stating deceptively that they have no laws against blood transfusions, and that they have no laws against voting for political office (see Free Minds Journal, Fall 1999, Jul/Sep 2000, and May/Oct 2002 issues), it is obvious that Bethel and its legal advisors have been courting individual nations, special interest groups and even the United Nations themselves for favor and mutual cooperation. The advantage to them: new members and financial aid, from none others than the government entities themselves!
The Watchtower has become truly apostate from their doctrinal stance of only a few years ago on many CRITICAL issues that previously identified them as ?the only true Christians.? They have become part of the world that they have condemned for the last 120 years, and have even taken upon themselves their own ?mark of the beast? by associating with the United Nations! Add to that their denial of any complicity in the tolerance of sexual abusers of children in their midst (Journal, Jan/Mar 2001 and beyond), even allowing such to go door-to-door, one can see that the days of the Watchtower Society as we know it are numbered. How appropriate are the words of Dan 3:26: ?God has numbered [the days of] your kingdom and has finished it.? (1984 Watchtower Reference Bible)
Criteria for association with the United Nations as an NGO:
(from http://www.randytv.com/secret/criteriaassociation.doc)
CRITERIA FOR ASSOCIATION WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC INFORMATION
a) The NGO must support and respect the principles of the Charter of the United Nations;
b) The NGO must be of recognized national or international standing;
c) The NGO should operate solely on a non-for-profit basis and have tax-exempt status;
d) The NGO must have the commitment and the means to conduct effective information programmes with its constituents and to a broader audience about UN activities by publishing newsletters, bulletins and pamphlets; organizing conferences, seminars and round tables; or enlisting the attention of the media;
e) The NGO should have an established record of continuity of work for a minimum of three years and should show promise of sustained activity in the future;
f) The NGO should have a satisfactory record of collaboration with UN Information Centres/Services or other parts of the UN System prior to association;
g) The NGO should provide an audited annual financial statement, conducted by a qualified, independent accountant;
h) The NGO should have statutes/bylaws providing for a transparent process of taking decisions, elections of officers and members of the Board of Directors.
Randy Watters
Leolaia,
I may be wrong but isn't the style and words used in the book Daniel an indication that parts of the book were written by writers of differnt periods?
I do agree with you and Narkissos that most of Daniel's prophecies are, or, were just history possing as prophecy.
LMAO @ the rolodex wheel of fortune . It really does seem that way and I sure as hell don't know where they come up with the theory that the king of north and south can change identities and has been a scenario going on throughout history when clearly it is an end time prophesy that ends in the great tribulation and the heavenly kingdom establishing itself on earth . I agree the best description for king of the north matches the US since there is no other country with a large naval force that invades the middle east . The king of the south may yet prove to be a united arab revolt against the aggression of western powers . We do know also that the US wishes to control the entire region and force them into compliance to their system of government thus setting up it's palatial tent .
