Let The Lambs Tell Us What They Need.

by Englishman 41 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

wednesday

post deleted
Edited by - wednesday on 5 January 2003 23:47:43
morrisamb

Thanks for asking...I don't really need anything where I'm at ...I've never felt so fricken normal in my life..I think once I got a global perspective on things, I saw how many people are suffering in so many different ways and each of those ways are equally important to the sufferers!! Comparing trauma is like comparing apples and organges. I do think it's so important to never trivialize individual experiences. I've talked to victims who've had one experience with an abuser who appear to be more traumatized than some who have been conditioned by the abuse. I too, do not consider myself a 'silentlamb' although I can appreciate the expression. I'm such a big mouth, that silence doesn't quite fit the bill at this stage of my life! I would say that I'm very wary of anyone who trys to tell me what to feel, think, say, wear, believe. Also of anyone who trys to dim my light to make theirs brighter. On the other hand, I've learned to risk so that I don't miss out on all the possibilities that life offers.
Goshawk

Greetings E-man,
I would tend to think that each "Lamb" would have different needs, as each situation is different. Yes, there would be some common wants/needs in many of the cases but, depending on the extent of abuse, level of denial, and amount of healing they have personally gone through would make each persons needs different.
So, as you say let them tell us what they need from us.
Personally having survived and grown beyond physical, emotional and mental abuse I can only start to imagine what life must be like for those Silent and some not so Silent Lambs. Yet, like most of us here, I am able to listen to what they want and need and help as able.
The bottom line, Let them tell us what they want and need.
Regards,
Goshawk
Edited by - goshawk on 6 January 2003 1:39:24
Englishman

Waiting certainly gave me plenty to think about, thanks, Waiting.
Waiting said:
As for the lambs? Actually - speaking only for ME - I hate that term. I guess it's ok for kids, but kids don't post here. We are men & women - victims in various modes of survival. Notice I said "various modes?"
That makes sense, I wouldn't want a label hung on me either.
We are as various in mental/emotional state as the jw victims/survivors. What makes it worse, we are victims of the WT and victims of our abusers. And too many of us went on to be victims of lousy marriages, lousy choices, etc....made because we weren't savvy to recovery issues.
Seems that people get used to being a victim generally once they have been abused. Something else I needed to know.
Ok.....one thing to remember when dealing with a sexual abuse victim/survivor is that shame is our close companion. People don't mean to sometimes....but they add to it, by their comments - and we're incredibly sensitive (overly) to comments.
So respect their sensitivity to many issues, it's more acute that it is for others.
Why didn't you just leave? Why didn't you just hit him? Why didn't you just run away? Why didn't you tell anyone? Don't you think it's time to get on with your life? I would have NEVER done THAT!
Most likely, ------- yes, you would have - and all those types of questions are judgemental, implying you are better than we were. But we ask ourselves all those damning & shame inducing questions too, and many more. Usually it takes a qualified therapist, a fine - non-judegemental confidant, reading for years, to slow the questions & deal with the shame.
Self-criticism is a constant companion, alongside a feeling of shame.
Even if we don't believe totally a victim/survivor's account....so what? Just how many people who post here get all their facts, figures, memories, structural accounts, all 100% correct ----- every single time we post? None of us.
This is important, we can't expect an abused person to give a 100% accurate account of their abuse, no-one can be that accurate in relating anything.
Some victims/survivors may have had crappy therapists. Just because they have a card printed, doesn't mean they're qualified. Even if they're qualifed - they can still be cruel and/or stupid. It's a fact - and it's abuse all over again.
So some look for help and get crapped on all over again.
Some victims/survivors may have false memories, impartial memories, few solid memories at all. Most survivors accept that of each other. Outsiders don't. They seem to demand 100% accuracy and authenticity for a forum conversation. Like any other person has complete 100% recall of their entire lives.
Again, don't expect everything to fit together nice and neatly.
Some victims/survivors can also have panic attacks. They're hell on wheels, and not recognizable until in the grip of one - a true, livid rage incompacitating the body & mind. And attacks are usually triggered by a sound, a word, a smell. Something simple - a post having nothing to do with abuse. It's a fact of life to be aware of. Most of us are good about getting away from the source asap, sometimes we aren't. But it hurts like hell & causes more shame, because the panic is nearly uncontrollable, only endured.
Waiting, this reminded me of children in India who had survived an attack by a tiger. They could go to a zoo and look at a tiger in a cage with little fear, but the rustle of a branch could have them in a state of terror, as could the smell of the jungle. These were things that they had experienced before the attack, the mind was seeing these things as a fore-runner to another attack.
Posting here or on other forums is entirely different than going into court. There should be differences, imho. Court is war, posting with like people should not be warfare. lol - but sometimes it is,eh?
Thanks for all that information, Waiting. I hope you don't mind me commenting on what you said earlier.
Englishman.
Lady Lee

Let The Lambs Tell Us What They Need
I have been pondering on this for the last couple of days.
How can those who have not been abused help those of us here who have, and what can we do that would be really useful to those persons?
Listen and let us know you have heard us. A simple ((( )))) will be enough to let us know you have listened. Seeing a lot of views and few posts hurts when we tell our story. It reminds us that no one wanted to know when we were hurt and no one wanted to support us.
Does it help to talk about it?
It does. But only as much as we are ready for. I know I have parts of my story scattered into different threads. Each part of the story is a story itself. Each part of the story addresses a certain issue. And I can only deal with what I am ready for at one time. In fact there are some parts I dont remember so please dont think I am lying if I only tell you one piece now and then another piece later on.
Does it help to name and shame the abuser?
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. When my abusers were alive it was very important for me to name them. They were both still dangerous to children. Now that they are dead they are no longer a threat. I have passed the name of my JW abuser on to "Concerned Lawyer" in case there are other victims of his.
And anything else that we ought to know?
Many of our reactions are polarized - extreme either one way or the other. Middle ground is hard to find for many of us. Triggers are unexpected and if I am not careful I may give a hasty response that I later will regret but adamantly hold to because I cant bear to be wrong. Thankfully I usually give myself time to think before I respond to things. And I am learning balance.
If you read something that I have posted please ask if that is what I meant before shooting me down. Words are not always easy because I was silent for so long. The more emotional an issue is the harder I may find it to express my feelings.
Turning all abuse discussions into an argument about different people who are trying to help diverts everybody from the issue at hand. Calling one victim a liar makes me think that you believe I am lying too. Remember - extreme reactions and lack of trust.
Sometimes we cant tell the whole story for a variety of reasons and that might make the story sound suspicious. Be patient. Truth eventually comes out.
What don't the non-abused know, that you consider to be essential?
TRIGGERS
We dont know when they happen. When we are in it, we feel overwhelmed and under attack. We will yell and scream about unfairness and injustice. We feel like we did as little kids who could not protect ourselves and no one will listen. If we perceive any lack of support or questioning we will see you as the attacker or on their side and not ours. Remember - polarized reactions to things. If we perceive you to be in a position of authority over us (or others) you will get painted with the same brush as any other abuser that we have ever known. We cant think in this state. We are emotion - raw. And feeling vulnerable and exposed to further attack. It isn't until it is over that we MIGHT be able to see it for what it was and then feel quite sorry for some of the things we have said and done.
I have seen so much of this here lately and recognize it well. I have been there myself many times. Gladly not too often in recent years. And I have learned to step back when I feel it happening and give myself time to get out of the emotion and back to my thinking self
Englishman

Lady Lee,
Thank you for that, it was most well expressed by you, if I may say so. There is one point that I need to touch on, and please believe me that I do not intend to cause any offence by this question.
On two occasions I have had dealings with people who's behaviour has been very bizzare and, to me anyway, unreasonable. In each case, I continued to associate with these persons because I had a friendship with their partner. After a period of time, both of these people - on separate occasions of course - told me that they had suffered sexual abuse as a child. My initial reaction in each case was one of concealed disbelief, I made the assumption that this was just another facet of what seemed to me to be a desire for attention.
Now I am having a re-think because of what you and others have told me. I am seeing that it is quite likely that the bizzare behaviour stems from the abuse itself, rather than the other way around, ie, the abuse being a figment of imagination that fitted in with the eccentric personality.
Does it happen that some people latch on to genuine abuse victims and pretend that they have been abused too? I can't see any reason myself for this to be so, however, I would appreciate your input on this. After all, the last thing a genuine abuse victim would want is some sort of third degree, that would be incredibly cruel IMHO.
Englishman.
Edited by - Englishman on 7 January 2003 8:44:21
Lady Lee

E-man
Does it happen that some people latch on to genuine abuse victims and pretend that they have been abused too?
Well to be honest I haven't heard of this before.
What research does show us however is that abused victims often tend to gravitate towards other victims, even when neither knows the oter was a victim as a child. The reasons for this are a little complicated but one of the factors is that there are certain dysfunctions that any victim has learned to cope with to get through the abuse. It is most common for people to gravitate towards what they know, and what victims know is abuse.
Very often we see a patterns where two people who come from abusive homes have resorted to various defence strategies. The woman may have many stress-related probems. She may present herself as if she is needy. If she never got nurtured as a child she may look for a man who will "take care of her". On the other side we may see a man who was abused or had siblings or a parent who was abused. His defence may to become very protective of others in an attempt to do what he couldn't do as a child (unconsciously). His need to be protective would be attracted to a woman who he thinks needs care and protection. (the opposite can be equally true where the woman has this intense need to "fix" everyone else to satisfy her need for nurturing (i.e. If I take care of everyone else maybe then someone will take care of me).
This seems to apply to careers as well. I have had students come to work with me who said they had no history of abuse. After a while of working they hbegin to get memories of abuse. In some of these cases the memories were vaildated by others so it wasn't that they were creating memories.
Englishman

Lady Lee,
Thanks for that, for some reason your post made me go all kind of shivvery.
Englishman.
Edited by - Englishman on 7 January 2003 9:57:33
Cassiline

Englishman,
I did see where you were coming from. I made my comments based solely on the recent debacle involving SL.
Ever since this issue hit the news, it has served to fan the flames of unrest and literaly devasted friendships, aquaintances right here on this board. There has been little tolerance or willingness to accept differing opinion's on this subject matter, from both sides of the fence. Even those trying to take a middle ground have been subjected to ridicule and spite, some people here shunning one another since day one.
It has developed into another religion for some. No quarter given, not even the slightest indicator, that perhaps we should have listened to those who first critiqued our methods. Someone recently lauded BB for being 'ballsy' about the affair........'ballsy' is not synonimus with courage or wisdom, any backstreet rufian can display 'balls', it is the wise, insightful generals who usually win the wars.
So exuse me for using your request of advice, as a platform for what I wanted to say.
Danny

DannyBear
Since they were my comments/words, you IMO took out of context with the above comments and misstated their meaning. I feel the need to respond to you even though this was not the intent for which Englishman started the thread.
You imply, I may try to glorify Bill with my post. Perhaps reread the post I made from the context in which it was set, to include the definition of ballsy? The word, which I used, that seems to have caused you so much distress.

Perhaps you may, or may not, see what I was trying to convey with the use of the word, in the context I intended. Ballsy does not equal lauding, you are quite aware of this. It does however mean courageous, in the sense I was trying to convey, and as defined above.
It was Bill Bowens tough at times, sometimes-reckless work that allowed child molestation in the organization to become conversed of worldwide. It was his ballsy nature, which helped so many to come forward with their stories for the press and then attorneys. Therefore bringing these deviant crimes into the limelight and no longer, as the WTS would have it, hidden, censored and undisclosed. I believe I also make it clear that I do not agree with all of Bill Bowens devices.
That post was not all about Bill Bowen. I saw an opening to voice strong sentiment about the constant fighting which goes on amoung ex-jws. I wrote that post thinking that some may see, even though different personalities shine through, and diverse points of focus by so many whom I mentioned may be scoffed at. Each has accomplished some or all of their goals, each person I mention has been disparaged at some time.
Several have had a cross to bear, which enabled all of us to benefit from their blood, sweat and tears. No matter what, it seemed, almost each person I mentioned faced an obstacle to overcome to our benefit at most times. And seemed in some cases the people they were trying to help, created the cross which they bear.
Collectively my point of the post was of working cohesively as ex-jws, to try and find a solution to what we may view as a problem and perhaps work it through. Not to continually and abrasively berate in public but perhaps try and solve the matter in private, a point, which I failed miserably in trying to make it, seems.
You were not the first to take the meaning of my post for other then which it was intended. Thank you DannyBear for a platform in which I may be able to clarify myself. I have never been cussed out in so many e-mails. Wait! Perhaps I was able to convey a small point about keeping name calling, nasty names and "cussing out" of one to private e-mail?
The post of which Danny speaks can be found here.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=43702&page=4&site=3
Please forgive the format, I have no idea why the type is so large, then small and different font. I tried correcting it several times prior to posting.
Edited by - cassiline on 7 January 2003 12:54:33
Edited by - Simon on 7 January 2003 16:1:19
Edited by - Simon on 7 January 2003 16:2:43
Cassiline

Englishman,
I did see where you were coming from. I made my comments based solely on the recent debacle involving SL.
Ever since this issue hit the news, it has served to fan the flames of unrest and literaly devasted friendships, aquaintances right here on this board. There has been little tolerance or willingness to accept differing opinion's on this subject matter, from both sides of the fence. Even those trying to take a middle ground have been subjected to ridicule and spite, some people here shunning one another since day one.
It has developed into another religion for some. No quarter given, not even the slightest indicator, that perhaps we should have listened to those who first critiqued our methods. Someone recently lauded BB for being 'ballsy' about the affair........'ballsy' is not synonimus with courage or wisdom, any backstreet rufian can display 'balls', it is the wise, insightful generals who usually win the wars.
So exuse me for using your request of advice, as a platform for what I wanted to say.
Danny

DannyBear
Since they were my comments/words, you IMO took out of context with the above comments and misstated their meaning. I feel the need to respond to you even though this was not the intent for which Englishman started the thread.
You imply, I may try to glorify Bill with my post. Perhaps reread the post I made from the context in which it was set, to include the definition of ballsy? The word, which I used, that seems to have caused you so much distress.
ballsy ( bl'zē )
adj. Vulgar Slang., -ier , -iest .
Very tough and courageous, often recklessly or presumptuously so .
Perhaps you may, or may not, see what I was trying to convey with the use of the word, in the context I intended. Ballsy does not equal lauding, you are quite aware of this point Im sure. It does however mean courageous, in the sense I was trying to convey and as defined above.
It was Bill Bowens tough, at times courageous attitude, sometimes-reckless work that allowed child molestation in the organization to become conversed of worldwide. It was his ballsy nature, which helped so many to come forward with their stories for the press and then attorneys. Therefore bringing these deviant crimes into the limelight and no longer, as the WTS would have it, hidden, censored and undisclosed. I believe I also make it clear that I do not agree with all of Bill Bowens devices.
That post was not all about Bill Bowen. I saw an opening to voice strong sentiment about the constant fighting which goes on amoung ex-jws. I wrote that post thinking that some may see, even though different personalities shine through, and diverse points of focus, by so many whom I mentioned may be scoffed at. Each has accomplished some or all of their goals, each person I mention has been disparaged at some time.
Several have had a cross to bear, which enabled all of us to benefit from their
blood, sweat and tears. No matter what, it seemed, almost each person I mentioned faced an obstacle to overcome to our benefit at most times. And seemed in some cases the people they were trying to help, created the cross which they bear.
Collectively my point of the post was of working cohesively as ex-jws, to try and find a solution to what we may view as a problem and perhaps work it through. Not to continually and abrasively berate in public but perhaps try and solve the matter in private, a point, which I failed miserably in trying to make it, seems.
You were not the first to take the meaning of my post for other then which it was intended. Thank you Danny for a platform in which I may be able to clarify myself. I have never been cussed out in so many e-mails. Wait! Perhaps I was able to convey a small point about keeping name calling, "cussing out" and all out nastyness in private e-mail?
The post of which Danny speaks can be found here.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=43702&page=4&site=3
Edited by - Simon on 7 January 2003 16:2:12

Let The Lambs Tell Us What They Need.

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