by mP 229 Replies latest watchtower bible
Phizzy:
I do not belive in any of that personally, from original sin on, but I think Paul did.
Many people of the time were waiting for a Deliverer Messiah , the Qumran community were waiting for two I believe, but when Paul heard the voice in his head, he thought the Christ had spoken to him.
MP:
There is no mention of sin in the laws of Moses. Look at the link. The Qumran community had very differentbelefs and books which are not in our Bible. You cant assume the basis for their beliefs.
How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.
The Law specified atonement sacrifices to be performed at the Temple for sins.
One way Jesus fulfilled the Law was by becoming the perfect sacrifice in atonement for sins. He was male without blemish, offered once and for all.
What's interesting is that after his death, the Temple was destroyed. There has been no more sacrifice in the old way required by the law, down to this day. Those laws can no longer be obeyed!
It doesn't say "law and prophecies" it says "the law and the prophets", which are the two parts of the Hebrew Scriptures known by those names. It is saying Jesus fulfilled prophecies from the Torah and from the prophetic writings.
Just my two cents... according to a number of commentators, the transfiguration was God's affirmation that Moses (representing the Law) and Elijah (representing the Prophets) would give way to Jesus when He said "Listen to him." Up until that point, God gave the Law for His people to obey, and he gave the Prophets to communicate to them His sayings. This was to be no more. From this point forward, they were to listen to Jesus.
Remember, too, the definition of "fulfill" can simply be "to bring to an end" (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fulfill see 2b).
Just my two cents... according to a number of commentators, the transfiguration was God's affirmation that Moses (representing the Law) and Elijah (representing the Prophets) would give way to Jesus when He said "Listen to him." Up until that point, God gave the Law for His people to obey, and he gave the Prophets to communicate to them His sayings. This was to be no more. From this point forward, they were to listen to Jesus.
Re member, too, the definition of "fulfill" can simply be "to bring to an end" ( http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fulfill see 2b).
The greek word used there is plerosai.
http://biblesuite.com/strongs/greek/4137.htm
accomplish, complete, fulfill
From pleres; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc. -- accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.
According to Paul's reasoning, Jesus "fulfilled" the law by living a sinless life and sacrificing it at the end of his ministry. As soontobe said, this did away with the need of the Israelites to be under the Law's specific commandments, though of course God's principles remain. I think you're taking the word "fulfilled" in a certain sense that it was never intended to be, or else you think that Paul didn't know basic grammar.
Soon:
The Law specified atonement sacrifices to be performed at the Temple for sins.
MP:
Since you mention sacrifices, i will make a short comment about them. Many sacrifices are for blessings, eg the birth of a child or passover which is another blessing of the new spring crops. I cant remember but i think there are a few for doing the wrong thing but i couldnt find one.
I am giving the list, so you can point one out and show it here. Dont repeat xian theology, we all know that, i am however talking about Moses.
Where is the word sin or concept in any of Moses writings including the law ? Scripture please. As far as i am aware that concept did not exist then and was made up after Jesus.
I dont think you can find "sin" or anything like it anywhere in the OT.
If we look at the summary of the laws by the Rabbis, they too are not aware of sin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot
Although there have been many attempts to codify and enumerate the commandments contained in the Torah, the traditional view is based on Maimonides ' enumeration. The 613 commandments comprise of "positive commandments", to perform an act ( mitzvot aseh ), and "negative commandments", to abstain from certain acts ( mitzvot lo taaseh ). The negative commandments number 365, which coincides with the number of days in the solar year , and the positive commandments number 248, a number ascribed to the number of bones and main organs in the human body (Babylonian Talmud, Makkot 23b-24a). [1] Though the number 613 is mentioned in the Talmud , its real significance increased in later medieval rabbinic literature, including many works listing or arranged by the mitzvot . Three types of negative commandments fall under the yehareg ve'al ya'avor , meaning "One should let oneself be killed rather than violate it". These are murder , idolatry , and forbidden sexual relations . [2]
MP:
SOON:
What's interesting is that after his death, the Temple was destroyed. There has been no more sacrifice in the old way required by the law, down to this day. Those laws can no longer be obeyed!
MP:
So what happened for the 40 years between Jesus death and the Roman destruction ? It would appear that Jesus did not leave instructions ( i am not aware of the scripture) nor did the apostles say anyting similar.
If his death was the end of sacrifice and you point to the temple that is flawed because it was not immediately destroyed. All buildings get destroyed or wasted its just a matter of waiting.
It would appear that you cant back a single statement with a bible quote from Moses. If you know of one please share.
Sin is mentioned throughout Moses' writings.
Genesis 4:7, for example.
Most of Leviticus is about sin and sin offerings by the priests.
APOG:
According to Paul's reasoning, Jesus "fulfilled" the law by living a sinless life and sacrificing it at the end of his ministry. As soontobe said, this did away with the need of the Israelites to be under the Law's specific commandments, though of course God's principles remain. I think you're taking the word "fulfilled" in a certain sense that it was never intended to be, or else you think that Paul didn't know basic grammar.
MP:
So your saying that we must accept Pauls word, because Jesus never said it.
I have already stated that there are many who all never break any of the laws of Moses(eg a baby), so this cant be a qualification. I dont get how one can fulfill a law. I ve never broken any laws of my home country, that doesnt mean i have fulfilled or have the right to replace the laws. THis is legal nonsense. The proof is you cant find a plain simple statement where jesus says here are the new laws. As i have shown Jesus in love thy neighbour is quoting, he is not refutng it.
Why are you taking the word of Paul a mere mortal and how did Jesus forget to say Moses is over here are the new laws.?
Paul didnt know jesus, no apostles, no mary, no virgin birth no miracles, if he did show me the scripture. There were lots of messiahs in ancient times. Go check wiki for a summary list.
Slim:
It doesn't say "law and prophecies" it says "the law and the prophets", which are the two parts of the Hebrew Scriptures known by those names. It is saying Jesus fulfilled prophecies from the Torah and from the prophetic writings.
MP:
Give one and i will show you many are so wrong and the words twisted its wrong. This is why the Jews dont accept Jesus because he never fulfilled the prophets.
