by mP 229 Replies latest watchtower bible
dear mP...
it doesn't matter what book you want to read the entire story is never revealed in a synopsis on the dust jacket. The entire history of God's dealings with man and the outworking of HIS plan are not contained in a single scripture.
well...if you surrender this one does...john14:6
love michelle
mP
Now that the list below confirms this, would you like to apologize ? Did you even check Gensis or the list below before opening your big mouth ?
Next your going to tell me you know more about the Torah than Maimonides, and his list is wrong, but i seriously doubt you have ever heard of him,nor do you have the humility to actually read about him on wiki as a start.
- Did you ever read the 613 list ?
- If not why not, where i s your Messiah there ?
- Or are you just throwing statements back at me.?
- Can you actually quote a single scripture from Moses to back your claims ?
Your list confirms nothing. Why should I apologize for your ignorance? Did you even look at the link I posted?
Your question (demand) amounts to asking how Barry Bonds broke the NFL rushing record or better yet how Mark McGwire set the Home run record using only his glove.
Are you suggesting that the preamble and/or the bill of rights are not part of the American constitution/Law?
Moses wrote all of Genesis and the other four books. You asked how Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses we told you, he fulfilled the prophesies in and of the Law. It's that simple. Take it or leave it. But you refuse to accept the answer and throw insults at those who tried to help you and answer your question.
DEPUTY DOG
mP
This means most of Genesis is of course out as its not law but "hstory".
This sentence confirms what I said before. You don't know what you are talking about. You don't like and/or want the answer.
Edited to add for anyone interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Moses
mP wants to know how Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses and refuses to include the law of moses as the law of moses
MP:
Is quite clear that my comment about "most" of Gensis being history is perfectly true. Gensis only has 3 laws, the list and quote i gave clearly show them in all their glory.
I have been perfectly accurate unlike yourself , you cant even quote or refer to anything but your adhominem attacks which outnumber by significant margin any quotes of any kind.
If i made such a rediculous statement you should be able to show me a cripture that says exact what you believe...but you cant.
- Did you ever read the 613 list ?
- If not why not, where i s your Messiah there ?
- Or are you just throwing statements back at me.?
- Can you actually quote a single scripture from Moses to back your claims ?
DeputyDog:
Your list confirms nothing. Why should I apologize for your ignorance? Did you even look at the link I posted?
MP:
Its not my list, its the official Jewish list compiled by Rabbi after Rabbi and contains each and every law of Moses from his writings with scriptures linking back to the text. It cannot be wrong, is it the result of thosuands of years of analysis and study .
DeputyDog:
Your question (demand) amounts to asking how Barry Bonds broke the NFL rushing record or better yet how Mark McGwire set the Home run record using only his glove.
Are you suggesting that the preamble and/or the bill of rights are not part of the American constitution/Law?
MP:
One does not need to read each and every word, a simple scan of the list for Messiah, sin and other key words will show they are absent from the list. It literally takes a minute or two.
If you want to discuss something and the other party is giving quotes, the least you culd do is read them for a minute or two.
If your too dont wish to read them, then refrain from commenting on their content. Its dishonest to present an opinion about something you are completely ignorant of. YOu should only reply on matters that you have attempted to read. Its basic manners, instead of repeating silly insults that are wrong out of ignorance.
dear mP...
it doesn't matter what book you want to read the entire story is never revealed in a synopsis on the dust jacket. The entire history of God's dealings with man and the outworking of HIS plan are not contained in a single scripture.
well...if you surrender this one does...john14:6
love michelle
y
MP:
Well its dishonest to claim that Moses wrote about the savour jesus when he didnt. The list of laws does not at any stage mention anyting remotely near what you and other christians claim. The OT doesnt even mention Jesus by name or title. Not a single scripture contains Jesus just like not a single mentions Jehovah in the NT.
dear mP...
it doesn't matter what book you want to read the entire story is never revealed in a synopsis on the dust jacket. The entire history of God's dealings with man and the outworking of HIS plan are not contained in a single scripture.
well...if you surrender this one does...john14:6
love michelley
MP:
Well its dishonest to claim that Moses wrote about the savour jesus when he didnt. The list of laws does not at any stage mention anyting remotely near what you and other christians claim. The OT doesnt even mention Jesus by name or title. Not a single scripture contains Jesus just like not a single mentions Jehovah in the NT.
well...if you surrender this one does...john14:6
Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If ? YOU ? men had known me, ? YOU ? would have known my Father also; from this moment on ? YOU ? know him and have seen him.”
John may very well be true, that is the focus of the question it is about a different matter.
The simple reply to that is its not the law of Moses. The question does not ask what Jesus claimed or said. Christians claim jesus fulfilled the law of Moses, so tell me which law(s) in the list of 613 he fulfilled. If yur going to answer the question shouldnt you be quoting Moses and the Law ?
Giving me scriptures from the NT is not in anyway addressing the challenge. We can give fav NT quotes but that is immaterial as the source is avaiable from GEn -> Deu.
mP
Its not my list, its the official Jewish list compiled by Rabbi after Rabbi and contains each and every law of Moses from his writings with scriptures linking back to the text. It cannot be wrong, is it the result of thosuands of years of analysis and study .
There is only ONE Law of Moses the Torah
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: Torah ( / ' t ?? r ? / ; Hebrew: ??????? , "Instruction", "Teaching") is a central concept in the Jewish tradition. It has a range of meanings:it can most specifically mean the first five books of the Tanakh,it can mean this, plus the rabbinic commentaries on it, it can mean the continued narrative from Genesis to the end of the Tanakh, it can even mean the totality of Jewish teaching and practice. Common to all these meanings, Torah consists of the foundational narrative of the Jewish people: their call into being by their God, their trials and tribulations, and their covenant with their God, which involves following a way of life (halakha) embodied in a set of religious obligations and civil laws.
In its most specific meaning, it consists of the first five books of the Tanakh written in Biblical Hebrew. The names of each of these books in Hebrew are taken from the first phrase in each book: Bereshit ("In [the] beginning", Genesis), Shemot ("Names", Exodus), Vayikra ("He called", Leviticus [1] ), Bamidbar ("In the desert", Numbers) and Devarim ("Words", Deuteronomy).
In rabbinic literature the word Torah denotes both these five books, Torah Shebichtav (???? ?????, "Torah that is written"), and an Oral Torah, Torah Shebe'al Peh (???? ???? ??, "Torah that is spoken"). The Oral Torah consists of the traditional interpretations and amplifications handed down by word of mouth from generation to generation and now embodied in the Talmud (?????????) and Midrash (????). [2]
Traditionally, the words of the Torah are written on a scroll by a sofer on parchment in Hebrew. A Torah portion is read publicly at least once every three days, in the halachically prescribed tune, in the presence of a congregation. [3] Reading the Torah publicly is one of the bases for Jewish communal life.
According to religious tradition, all of the teachings found in the Torah, both written and oral, were given by God to Moses, some of them at Mount Sinai and others at the Tabernacle, and all the teachings were written down by Moses, which resulted in the Torah we have today. According to a Midrash, the Torah was created prior to the creation of the world, and was used as the blueprint for Creation. [4]
Jesus did not fulfill 613 rules/laws. Jesus fulfilled 1 Torah = One LAW of Moses
Christians have had this understanding of the fulfillment long before Rambam(about 1100 years before).
Do the MATH (the 613 rules/laws) + (History) = The Torah = One LAW of Moses
dear mP...
you are right, the law of moses does not name Jesus Christ. But Jesus did fulfil the law. you will have to understand the law to see this however.
jews are judged by their law (the law of moses) and that is WHY that law will stand until all things are accomplished...at the final judgement jews will be judged by their law. (romans 2:12)
gentiles that do by nature what is contained in the law aare said to be a law unto themselves. Now not having the law they would even know about all 613 jewish laws but they would, by nature, understand what being just is and what mercy is and what being moral etc (this scripture doesn't speak about every gentile, only the ones who do do by nature...) (romans 2:14-16)
regardless of the law of moses on the part of the jews or any instinctive or internal natural law keeping on the part of the gentiles...paul goes on to say that both jews and gentiles have been confined under sin. (romans 3:9-18)
when a person sins those sins are held against you - stacked up. it is my understanding that if you are a jew then you are judged according to the law of moses there is provision that those sins against another are brought out into the open and the jew makes atonement to the individual(s) that were sinnned against...but... those sins are still stacked up and they still have to be covered over and forgiven by God and a sacrifice presented to Him.
gentiles without the law have no such provision - those sins remain stacked against them. there is nothing that will get rid of them or cover over them or remove them...regardless of how regularily you make atonement and ask forgiveness of the individual(s) you have sinned against.
the gentile will be judged by God according to all those sins that have not been covered over or removed...that means every single sin you ever committed! throughout the years that stack can get awfully big. (romans 2:12)
however the Good News is - God the Father sent His Son, Jesus, to pay the penalty for those sins for ANYONE who would accept that free gift...the blood sacrifice that would cover over all those sins so that those sins would be forgiven by God in a similar manner as that in the jewish sacrifice that covers over their sins.
Remember the priests who caught a woman in adultery? they had a stack of sins that hadn't been covered over and forgiven by God yet (john 8:1-9)
***Jesus said unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins (naham 1:6)and Jesus said you must repent and believe to be saved...saved from what? God's wrath against sin in the judgement (romans 2:5)***
How did Jesus fulfill the law? mark 2:6-7
love michelle
DeputyDog:
There is only ONE Law of Moses the Torah
MP:
I know that thats why i have been repeating people need to quote Moses not some other third party. LAW = MOSES LAW
wiki via DeputyDog
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: Torah ( / ' t ?? r ? / ; Hebrew: ??????? , "Instruction", "Teaching") is a central concept in the Jewish tradition. It has a range of meanings: it can most specifically mean the first five books of the Tanakh , it can mean this, plus the rabbinic commentaries on
MP: I thought we were using the understanding that it ONLY refers to the writings of Moses, which are supposed to be Gods thoughts. COmmentaries while interesting are not divine.
DeputyDog:
Do the MATH (the 613 rules/laws) + (History) = The Torah = One LAW of Moses
MP:
Im sorry the historical part of Moses is not law, but for the purposes of my assertion it doesnt matter. What matters is the list.
How exactly did Jesus fulfill the flood story of Noah or the story of Abraham, or any other story ? You cant fulfill a record of a historical event. If you just copy it again then your repeating that event, thats not prophecy. Ultimately the purpose of the history is to often teach according to standards in the big list of Moses.
DeputyDog:
Christians have had this understanding of the fulfillment long before Rambam (about 1100 years before).
mP:
Im not asking for a history of how long this belief has existed im asking for evidence. Go check what belief means in a dictionary. I notice you have failed to include a quote from Moses. Please try again.
Where in Moses writings is there anything discussing a future Jesus, Gods son or Messiah. Jesus who was supposed to have existed from before the earth doesnt even get a mention anywhere in the OT. There are no prophecies in Moses writings about 0-33AD.
To help please include scriptures and quotes.
