How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.

by mP 229 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  mP

  CHRIST:

  I wasn't necessarily saying anything about you, MP. I'm saying it about ME! I break the law. I will continue to even though I try not to. Have you never told a lie?The Law exists (in this context my countries law) and I can never fulfill it perfectly. I try, but I fail. I have not broken a law like murdering. But big laws and small laws are still laws.

  MP:

  We are firstly talking about the law of Moses. Christian say that he came to save us from the Law and only he nver broke any of the laws. We are not talking about you breaking laws in your home country.

  CHRIST:

  And breaking one of God's laws is sin.

  MP:

  God didnt write any of the laws of my home country, and he didnt write any of the laws of your country. The only law we have from God is Moses law in the beginning, so focus on that.

  CHRIST:

  Have you never stolen anything even something as small as a pen?

  MP:

  The OT says not to steal from your neighbour, I work from home, i cant steal pens from my boss becaus i have never met them they are in a different country. Secondly when i worked locally the pens i used/stole were not from my neighbour they were from a personless entity called a company which does not exist in the bible.

  Honestly i rarely took pens because i have no use for them.

  CHRIST:

  Have you never turned your wheels the wrong way so they are not facing the curb on a hill (a law in many places)? Even breaking a small law is breaking the law.

  MP:

  Driving laws are not mentioned in the Bible. Thiis is yet another bogus analogy. Jesus couldnt have saved anyone from driving laws because cars didnt exist then nor did Moses write down any car laws.

  CHRIST:

  Next time you want to say i have sinned show me a scripture, stop equating breaking laws in our homeands with the laws of Moses. Jesus did not come to save us from the laws of USA or CAnada or whereeever.
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  Apognophos

  I actually think both of you guys, mP and Christ Alone, are overlooking a strong viewpoint in the OT about man being inherently sinful.

  The eating of the fruit by Adam and Eve in Gen. 3 led to their 'eyes being opened and realizing they were naked' (the introduction of sinful thought to mankind). Their first child, Cain, gave in to "sin crouching at the entrance" (Gen 4:7) and killed his brother. By Noah's time, God said that "the inclination of the heart of man is bad from his youth up" (Gen. 8:21). David later wrote, "With error I was brought forth in birth pains [a reference to Eve's curse, making the connection to the Original Sin], and in sin my mother conceived me." ( Psalms 51:5)

  Even Isaiah said to the angel in 6:5, "a man unclean in lips I am", feeling unworthy to see Jehovah. So in verse 7, the angel touches a coal to his lips and says, "Your error has departed and your sin itself is atoned for." There was no specific sin being discussed here on Isaiah's part. Rather, even he as a servant of the true God was considered sinful and needed a "pardon" in order to see God.

  Finally, don't forget the verse we all knew by heart as Witnesses, Jer. 17:9: "The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate." That's a general condemnation of man's nature if I've ever seen one.

  Yes, there was also lots of OT discussion of specific sin -- there were provisions for making a sacrifice in order to atone for an individual sin; the nation as a whole was called sinful when they were not serving Jehovah. But even when Israel or Judah was considered sinful, they were still better than the nations (Deut. 4:8). So I think it's pretty clear that all men were considered sinners, at least in the eyes of whoever wrote those specific verses above (modern scholars attribute a lot of the sinful-man talk in the Pentateuch to the Yahwist). This was the viewpoint that Paul was taught as a Pharisee, and he really ran with it, but it wasn't of his making.

  My point here is that Jesus was in fact needed as a sacrifice to counteract man's sinful nature (as referenced in binadub's post, see John 1:29) according to the Mosaic Law, and thus he fulfilled that Law by bringing its need for sacrifice and priestly mediation to a finish. Now, that's not the same thing as saying he replaced the Law, as he himself made clear. The principles behind the Law are still considered applicable to Christians, of course.
• 

  mP

  APOG

  actually think both of you guys, mP and Christ Alone , are overlooking a strong viewpoint in the OT about man being inherently sinful.

  MP:

  Show me a law of Moses that i have broken with a quote. Stop making blanket statements which you cannot back up. I have asked a few times for quotes from Moses but nobody can come up with any. Use any bible you wish just include a link and quot ethe verse here for everyone to read.
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  villagegirl

  The law and the sacrifices and the blessings were all done through a system of a Priesthood,

  remember? Jesus REPLACED the Priesthood. The Priesthood was acting as a mediator.

  Jesus Christ became the Mediator, the Priesthood was no longer required because Christ

  was and is, now able to forgive sins directly, no sacifices of animals required, and now we

  have direct access to him, one on one. He therefore fulfilled and completed the Law.

  No governing body acting like a "priesthood" required, no organization

  recquired, no special earthily and heavenly classes required, just faith and grace and holy

  spirit to become one in the body of Christ. No 100 page explanations required. Just faith.
• 

  mP

  APOG

  Finally, don't forget the verse we all knew by heart as Witnesses, Jer. 17:9: "The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate." That's a general condemnation of man's nature if I've ever seen one.

  MP:

  Maybe back then people were evil, and perhaps they were. Slavery no doubt is evil and lots of people had slaves. But a lot of people didnt. That sttemetn from J doesnt actually say which law, its a commentary.
• 

  mP

  Village:

  The law and the sacrifices and the blessings were all done through a system of a Priesthood,

  remember? Jesus REPLACED the Priesthood. The Priesthood was acting as a mediator.

  Jesus Christ became the Mediator, the Priesthood was no longer required because Christ

  was and is, now able to forgive sins directly, no sacifices of animals required, and now we

  have direct access to him, one on one. He therefore fulfilled and completed the Law.

  No governing body acting like a "priesthood" required, no organization

  recquired, no special earthily and heavenly classes required, just faith and grace and holy

  spirit to become one in the body of Christ. No 100 page explanations required. Just faith.

  MP:

  THe priesthood was a money making business. YOu broke one of Moses law they collected the fine, after that you were free. However if you needed to be stonned well its a hard to walk away once your dead. For all the other lesser stuff it was like the police or parking police of today.

  YOu have failed to demonstrate like everyone else what laws of moses me a typical person has broken. You would think this would be simple but nobody can show a single sripture from Moses.
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  Apognophos

  Um, I wasn't talking about whether you've broken the Mosaic Law or not. Please read my first sentence and last paragraph again. Christ Alone was the one talking about what laws any of us have specifically broken. My point was trying to get back to your original challenge about how Jesus fulfilled the Law.
• 

  mP

  APOG:

  Um, I wasn't talking about whether you've broken the Mosaic Law or not. Please read my first sentence and last paragraph again. Christ Alone was the one talking about what laws any of us have specifically broken. My point was trying to get back to your original challenge about how Jesus fulfilled the Law.

  MP:

  And yet you quote Isa and Jer who are making general commentaries with no specifics. Of course everyone makes mistakes, but god like the pollice during the arrest process today have to pinpoint which ones and give a reference to the law.

  Until you actually point out a law from moses that a typical person like me breaks the challenge remains unconquered.
• 

  mP

  APOG:

  My point here is that Jesus was in fact needed as a sacrifice to counteract man's sinful nature (as referenced in binadub 's post, see John 1:29) according to the Mosaic Law, and thus he fulfilled that Law by bringing its need for sacrifice and priestly mediation to a finish . Now, that's not the same thing as saying he replaced the Law, as he himself made clear. The principles behind the Law are still considered applicable to Christians, of course.

  MP:

  John is another generalisation.

  People like me only need Christ if we break the law because he pays the fine for us in modern parlance. Im sorry this is a fail. Again many people never break any of the laws of Moses irregularless of what John, Jeremiah or anybody else says.
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  villagegirl

  Jesus replaced the Law, because the law was about sin. Without the law there was no awareness of personal fault or sin, there could be self justication and making up rules as you go along, or rules that work for you but nobody else. No-one could ever keep the Law perfectly so it was a hopeless situation, where righteousness could never be achieved by sacrifices and attempting to keep the Law. The law was there to make us aware of our imperfection and inabilty to be perfect. Jesus introduced a New Covenant, of Grace and the hope of perfection through unity with God through Jesus Christ when the physical body is replaced by the spiritual body and everlasting life in a spiritual body.