Are religionists and atheists on the same team?

by Fernando 191 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    It would seem then that the "lost" (or not yet saved) in scripture are rather different from the "wicked" or "evil" (or the seemingly never will be saved).

    Beautiful. Thank you for that! If I were to have said that religious people say stuff like this to nonbelievers, everyone would have been all over me claiming my statement was unfair and didn't include them. I would say I UNDERSTAND it doesn't include them, however it is quite common. Then the argument erupts----everyone defending themselves.

    It is truly a joy just to have a real life example and let it speak for itself.

    NC

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    It is possible to lie about God. Someone might not believe in God but appear to do so to others for whatever profit he thinks it will get him.

  • Knowsnothing
    Knowsnothing

    I call for a change of uniform. Striped is so 1950's jail-wannabe.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    Dave Rothstein
    Dave is a former graduate student and postdoctoral researcher at Cornell who used infrared and X-ray observations and theoretical computer models to study accreting black holes in our Galaxy. He also did most of our website development.
    Here is a list of some questions answered by Dave R. (2000- ).

    A balanced answer from Dave Rothstein:

    Do most astronomers believe in God based on the available scientific evidence?

    I am actively engaged in a religious debate forum where many Christians claim that astronomers are almost all Christians. They say the universe is so complex and yet orderly. If there isn't a God, it would be chaotic, they claim. I am undecided, but I would really like your opinion on the matter.

    First of all, there are plenty of people who believe in God who aren't Christians - either members of other organized religions or just people who believe in a deity or greater power but don't subscribe to any of the tenets of a particular religion. So it seems like you really have two questions: (1) what percentage of astronomers are Christians? and (2) what percentage of astronomers believe in God?

    I know there have been a lot of surveys done over the years about these questions (at least polls of scientists in the United States - I'm not sure how much it's been done in other countries). As with all surveys, their methodologies are open to question so it's not always easy to say how reliable the results are. I am aware of at least one survey published in the scientific journal Nature in the 1990's which showed that around 60% of American scientists (astronomers and otherwise) either do not believe in or doubt the existence of God. This definitely represents a greater rate of disbelief and doubt than the U.S. population as a whole. Personally, I am often skeptical of the detailed results of these surveys, simply because I think a lot of people's answers to the questions depend on how the questions are asked. It's possible to believe in God but yet still have doubts, and sometimes surveys don't seem to do a very good job making this distinction.

    As for me, I do think that modern science leaves plenty of room for the existence of God and that there are plenty of places where people who do believe in God can fit their beliefs in the scientific framework without creating any contradictions. (This is not, however, the same as saying science proves or requires the existence of God, as I will explain below.) A couple examples in particular:

    (1) The Big Bang. We have extremely strong evidence that the universe as we know it had a beginning, that everything which we can think of, matter and space alike, started off compressed together and has been expanding ever since. The fact that the universe is developing and not just standing still certainly makes the questions of how it started, where it's going, etc. very relevant, and a lot of people might find a place for God in trying to answer those questions.

    (2) Quantum mechanics. We know from quantum mechanics that at the microscopic level, our world has an inherent uncertainty. If you make measurements of microscopic particles, there is absolutely no way you can predict the results of a given measurement. The probability of getting a particular measurement (if you do the experiment many times) can be accurately calculated beforehand, but quantum mechanics tells us that there is absolutely no way to determine what the result of a given measurement will be because the microscopic particle simply DOES NOT HAVE the property you are trying to measure until you actually measure it - it is in a "superposition of states" consisting of all possible outcomes, and when you measure it, it "chooses" one of these particular outcomes to be in. This of course raises the question of how the particle does this "choosing", and I think many people might see the possibility of God intervening every time a measurement (or any event on the microscopic level of our world, for that matter) occurs. This would then be a God who was bound by certain general rules (the probabilities of particular outcomes to the measurement) but who had freedom to choose the results of any particular set of measurements and to influence the world in that way. (Note added September 2003: Strictly speaking, quantum mechanics does not require that the universe behaves indeterministically in this way, i.e. where the particle mysteriously "chooses" its properties at the moment a measurement is made. However, it is the simplest interpretation that we have to explain experimental results obtained on the microscopic level, and thanks to the amazing mathematical result known as Bell's Inequality and the experiments that followed its discovery, we know that there is only one possible alternative to the above interpretation. This alternative is in some ways more profound; it would require a universe in which the properties of an individual particle are instantaneously and continuously altered by the actions of other particles located at arbitrarily large distances away, with no obvious mechanism in place for the alteration to occur. Standard quantum mechanics, meanwhile, still requires instantaneous communication in some cases, but only at the moment the measurement is made.)

    However, the bottom line of what I think is this: science has not even come close to being able to prove (or disprove) the existence of God, and perhaps never will. So whatever the real statistics for how many astronomers believe in God, I don't think there's a single competent astronomer out there who believes in God because of his or her work in astronomy. Astronomers may believe in God for other reasons, and in that case they may find aspects of astronomy which allow them to comfortably fit their conception of God, such as some of the ideas I discussed in the above paragraph. Some astronomers might even go so far as to say that astronomy contributed to their belief in God. For example, some people believe in God because of an impression they have that the world is a beautiful place with many complex, wonderful things in it. To the extent that science consists of allowing us to see more of these things (such as faraway galaxies, the structure of molecules, etc.) it might contribute to the strength of their belief. But I guess what I'm worried about is when people get into the part of science that consists of trying to explain the causes of things we see (i.e., scientific theory) and take a specific example from this part of science and say "Look! This fact proves/disproves the existence of God!" I really don't think that is legitimately possible to do with anything that science has discovered so far.

    The ultimate point is that science does not deal with belief; it deals with things that you can prove. And since we can't prove or disprove the existence of God, the question of whether or not a person believes in God doesn't (or at the very least shouldn't) have anything to do with scientific reasoning.

    September 2001, Dave Rothstein (more by Dave Rothstein) (Like this Answer)

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    Still Thinking, science can prove a lot of things, but it cannot prove that there is no god. It's strictly the opinion of some scientists that God does not exist. You have scientists who do believe and scientists who do not believe. They all have the same science on which to base their opinions. They draw different conclusions. God has always been real to me. Jehovah never felt real.

  • tec
    tec

    That is why discussions lead to us analyzing and criticizing these gods and the inconsistencies with what a believer is saying. We are addressing their perception,

    I know. My only point was that people use arguments on me that have nothing to do with my faith. If I or others -who have faith in the spirit, and none in religious creeds/rules/doctrines/traditions - do not stick within the boundaries of those religious traditions, then we are not 'doing' christianity the 'right' way.

    How many people have said, including you, that once you saw that the bible was not infallable/inerrant... just another so-called 'holy' book... the entire thing fell?

    That is what I mean.

    I propose that atheists and christians are on the same team...most here disagree with and try to disprove religion....LOL

    LOL... I actually find that this is true a lot of the time.

    Ever cosidered that God does not exist? I mean....really considered it...not just a fleeting moment of doubt...put some thought into it.

    I have. It didn't last long at all, and I suppose that would be fleeting... but it is just that I got an answer immediately. One of the few times that I asked after putting a certain thought off (you know how we can do that to ourselves - don't ask if you're not ready to hear the answer, whatever it might be, sort of thing), and was answered at once.

    I don't believe God is so petty as to even come up with the concept of wanting to be worshipped.

    I agree. At least... his idea of worship and our idea of worship are not the same.

    I don't necessarily think that the motivation of people demanding that God be worshipped be malicious though. It could be as simple as being in such awe and 'state of worship': "God is so awesome; we should be on our knees, giving thanks, etc." Not in a demanding way, but in a manner of wonder. That could get twisted as time goes on to control people.

    More man's idea though, regardless of the motive.

    Peace

    tammy

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow
    Some scientists believe in God---the majority don't.

    This is extremely debatable.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    I see Atheists and Religionists on the same team...because I see religion as the antithesis of Christianity.

    Jesus did not start or sanction a religion, despite what the WT antithesis of Christianity claims

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    How many people have said, including you, that once you saw that the bible was not infallable/inerrant... just another so-called 'holy' book... the entire thing fell?

    Yes, but it is a more involved process than that. The only thing that proving the bible is inaccurate does is prove the bible is inaccurate. That is often the first step. It's what this leads to. It lead to me critically analyzing all forms of belief and ultimately the belief in any god. So it's not just that we have decided the bible was untrue, therefore there is no god. It's more like our critical thinking kicked in, and allowed us to ask all the questions--questions we had not honestly asked ourselves in the past. Consider it the first dominoe to fall---but not the last one.

    NC

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    This is extremely debatable.

    An eye-opening new Pew survey on science and religion reveals a huge God gap between scientists and other Americans. Eighty-three percent of Americans say that they believe in God, while just 33 percent of scientists do. Just 17 percent of Americans are religiously unaffiliated, while nearly three times as many scientists are.

    http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/god-and-country/2009/07/16/pew-survey-a-huge-god-gap-between-scientists-and-other-americans

    But if I remember right, you don't believe in polls and statistics, but this is all I have to offer to support my comment. Anything else would just be a feeling or a hunch----this is the only form that evidence would take.

    NC

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