IS GOD REAL? HOW DO YOU KNOW?

by still thinking 778 Replies latest jw friends

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    FHN - you may or may not be trying to convince me. My whole point is about convincing yourself. You see I once believed as much as you ( within rough guides of strength of belief ) and yet it wasn't until I looked for ways to falsify that belief that I was able to actually test the strength of that belief. Until that moment of clarity I was able to assert strongly that I believed and to make seemingly cogent explanations for my belief ( I spent two years as a full time missionary on that basis ) and yet I hadn't actually made the leap into questioning myself, my own ability and until I could do that I couldn't see the weakness in my position. Once I decided to accept the truth as described by the evidence ( rather than as described by my deluded and biased perception filters ) I came to a different, rather painful conclusion. Until I could see what would falsify my belief and use it to examine my belief my faith , though strongly asserted, was empty.

    Can you describe what would falsify your belief for you?

  • tec
    tec

    Q, what falsified your belief?

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    Still Thinking and Qc, I am so drowsy that I kept falling asleep trying to reply to you both. I copied my forming comment and e-mailed it to myself and will try to make it more coherent later and post it.

    Still Thinking, I was a universalist from the time I was a small child. I had very deep thoughts and feelings about God. I asked my mother a lot of questions. She said I really challenged her to think when I was three, four and five. Okay, too drowsy to comment more for now.

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    sleep well Flying High

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Tec - there were lots of things in the end but here are a few major ones I remember:

    Mormonism relies heavily upon the concept of a testimony, a personal experience with the divine normally expressed as a 'burning in the bosom' in the presence of 'truth'. Basically the slightly choked up feeling we get when we experience something very moving. I had a very exceptional experience has a young boy where after several nights of prayer about the Book of Mormons truthfulness I had a very strong emotional experience that seemed to fill me with love and - for want of a better word - bliss. This was a bedrock of my testimony. On my personal examination of my rationale for faith as an adult I decided to see if there were any circumstances where such feelings could be auto generated ( I had experienced similar feelings several times since while giving talks in church, bearing testimony as a missionary etc.) I read several books on how the mind works and on psychology and lo and behold I found descriptions of exactly what happens. The brain is a trainable and easily tricked organ that will engineer the reality you tell it to ( roughly!) and will throw in some surprise freebies ( a good example is color based optical illusions .) Continually seeking for an affirmative physiological response to a thought pattern ( prayer to confirm book of mormon true and by extension Mormon gods existence ) plus subjecting my body to unusual input stress stimuli that stimulate adrenaline amongst other chemicals (for example kneeling in a dark room / standing at a pulpit in front of people) and adding in an altered trancelike mind state ( hymns, prayer, language change - using thee and thou in prayer/ scripture etc.) all combine to be the perfect storm to engender and train the brain to produce otherworldy ecstatic feelings. Add this to a social environment where all respected authority figures and peers are coaching you and giving you an expectation of what you will feel it is absolutely feasible that you will have experiences over a lifetime which are mistakenly categorised as emanating from an external divine source. Young teenage me accepted those feelings as divine and thereafter every time I felt that sort of feeling whether it be at a good movie, at someone accepting baptism or an athlete overcoming challenges to win a race I re-ran the reinforcing meme in my head, ' wow I can feel the spirit of god, thank you for showing me truth .'

    A huge one was evolution and the obvious falsity of a global flood ( Mormonism, unlike sophisticated modern Christianity of the last hundred years, absolutely requires a global flood as it is confirmed as such in the book of Mormon.)

    Bible criticism ( Bart Ehrman's works amongst others) shattered both the old and new testaments. Coupled with Mormon prophets' fails ( I won't bother to list but there are some whoppers - see Hoffman and Kimball) allowed me to see every single prophet and their utterances as regularly incorrect / lies. This broke the idea that anyone - however lovely - was receiving divine information on my behalf.

    Answers to prayer to which I could allude several allegorical personal and family examples could not withstand the confirmation bias test and more importantly moral test. On reflection very infrequently answered prayers were no different to fortuitous luck / self fulfilling prophecy ( please help me to control my anger leads to greater anger awareness ergo less outburst - damn it :) and importantly showed a petty god who answered my requests to get a job , find peace in my soul , have a good day etc while allowing my next door kid neighbour to be buggered every night by his violent paedophile father - note this is illustrative, my real next door neighbours were girls and both were raped by their father but not every night.)

    In short my internal construction of Christ, heaven, angels, prayer, faith were all falsifiable and explainable once I accepted that my brain was a foolable organ that generated reality for me and then I allowed myself to really read evolution, biblical criticism, Mormon unvarnished history - all of which dismantled , with a wrecking ball, my faith. Brutally slaughtering my internal holy cows was painful but liberating. I held onto my imaginary but powerful world , despite all the very obvious contradictory evidence, way too long. My belief wasn't very strong when I finally really put it to the test.

  • still thinking
    still thinking
    So I will say that it was not the basis of Gandhi's believing that caused his hearing, but I don't know. I think it is possible that he heard the inner voice and then found Christ. ....N.Drew

    I think you will find he read the bible first....THEN found christ.

  • soft+gentle
    soft+gentle

    hi stillthinking - I have been busy - 2 sick people in my family at the moment. Then when I come to sit at my computer a little voice tells me to go outside and enjoy the sunshine - but I have time to read a little and then mull it over before replying.

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    Thats what I should have been doing today soft+gentle, good on you...maybe I will tomorrow. , my garden is screaming out for attention and I am here blabbing....hope your family is on the mend. Flu? or bug?

  • N.drew
    N.drew
    I think you will find he read the bible first....THEN found christ.

    But I was talking about the little voice inside that he heard. That might have come first.

    The voice, then the Bible, then The Christ.

    Without the Bible humans can only have a vague outline. Without it I think that the voice inside doesn't make much sense.

    If I heard in my head "I am Christ" I would think "You're what?" "What is a christ?" ..... and "Do you think you should be talking to my head?" "Where I live they put people away for that".

  • soft+gentle
    soft+gentle

    I saw this yesterday and want to reply today

    soft+gentle....*come in close, I have to say this quietly*

    References to Wisdom are found in Proverbs. In fact, when you read Gnostic texts Wisdom is written about in the same way. Wisdom is the feminine. To me, Proverbs 1 almost seems like it has been taken directly from the Gnostics beliefs.

    http://bible.cc/proverbs/1-20.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_(wisdom)

    *move along...no one is quoting the bible.........lol*

    the good news is that wisdom has been explored by texts other than the bible and I think it does have a bearing on your question - IS GOD REAL HOW DO YOU KNOW?

    For example just as wisdom is the feminine it is not just women. For women too the feminine is, huge, unexplored and mysterious. The masculine too is not just men but similarly potential laden despite being explored much more than the feminine. If something is unexplored and mysterious is it still real? I say yes and that it can somehow in an as yet unexplained way, communicates something to you. In ancient texts this was done by means of signs and signals which were called phantasma which means appearances which to me suggests something real.

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