Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One 754 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • CalebInFloroda
    CalebInFloroda

    @cofty

    I didn't mean to apply that all atheists have a condition on their stance. It definitely doesn't apply to you. As you note I said "some atheists."

    Finally, you said: "Suffering proves the god of christian theism does not exist. It is a point worth repeating. Please stop trying to change the subject."

    Was I changing the subject? I also don't believe in the god of Christian theism. I also didn't say we can't prevent all disasters. People suffer after disasters, not before. We can prevent some suffering, and aid the suffering of others. Just because we as humans are not able to totally prevent suffering doesn't mean I am wrong to say it is our responsibility to stop suffering whenever and however we can.

    And lastly (and you can keep on with your thread for this point without me, I promise), I don't think copying Christian evangelists who adopt an ideology that people's personal convictions should be changed is worth imitating. Atheists are just as capable of doing great and very good things without religion. And not all religious people are evil because they believe in a god. What you mentally believe or make claim to is insignificant. Instead of trying to get people to change their convictions like Christians do, how about acknowledging the good in people whatever they believe, however they self identify, regardless of creed, ethnicity, etc., and try and find ways of building bridges instead of building walls.

    Feeling compelled to preach there is no G-d and condemning those (or at least looking down upon those) who do is no different from preaching and trying to convince others there is one. Our mental acknowledgement or denial of a deity doesn't make or break said deity.

  • cofty
    cofty
    I don't think copying Christian evangelists who adopt an ideology that people's personal convictions should be changed is worth imitating

    What a ridiculous assertion.

    If a charlatan was selling snake oil would you be "imitating" him by publicly pointing out his fraud?

    The rest of your post is addressing some straw man that I don't recognise.

  • little_Socrates
    little_Socrates

    I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding that neither side is addressing...

    Atheists think that if there is an all loving and all powerful God he must prevent suffering. This idea suffers from confirmation bias just as badly as many statements and beliefs Theists make.

    Can you prove to me that perfect love must eliminate all suffering... and not only that must do it right this minute? Maybe love and suffering are compatible in some way that we can not fully understand here in our temporal existence.

    To say suffering is bad and love is good is to simply just confirm how it feels to experience it. However your feelings on the subject don't create a moral absolute on the subject. Sometimes good things feel bad and bad things feel good. We can't go by how things feel when it comes to judging them.

  • cofty
    cofty
    Can you prove to me that perfect love must eliminate all suffering... and not only that must do it right this minute?

    I have never encountered an atheist who was sufficiently facile to make this challenge.

    This is another straw man.

  • cofty
    cofty
    Sometimes good things feel bad and bad things feel good. We can't go by how things feel when it comes to judging them

    So if I think that the drowning of a quarter of a million men, women and babies in a tsunami feels bad for everybody involved, I might be mistaken and, in fact it might be a moral good.

    Of course people can be mistaken about what is good for them. We see that from fundie religious people every day.

  • freemindfade
    freemindfade
    Someone here said something to the effect:

    Atheists don't think that is there is and all powerfull all loving God he has to prevent suffering. Hmm not really

    Actually If such a character existed they'd want nothing to do with the asshole. That's all. But they don't believe so it's of no consequence.

    There are a lot of things that make no sense with this god fellow. Do you know anyone who is in their right mind, not a maniac, and has good leadership qualities that DEMANDS worship? Even if they so called deserve it?

    If your loving God exists. His version of love is very strange and my version of him is hed be an ass.

  • little_Socrates
    little_Socrates

    "I have never encountered an atheist who was sufficiently facile to make this challenge.

    This is another straw man."

    Maybe I don't understand your argument... but that is what I am hearing. If we have an all powerful all loving God he would eliminate suffering... There is suffering so therefor no God.

    How should I understand this statement then?

    "Suffering proves the god of christian theism does not exist. It is a point worth repeating. Please stop trying to change the subject."

  • little_Socrates
    little_Socrates

    Suffering could prove we don't understand God.

    Suffering in no way proves if God exists or doesn't.... it is a separate argument.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Your error was reductio ad absurdum

    If you have been following the debate you already know the argument is far more subtle.

    The challenge for christian theists is to reconcile the grandiose assertions they make for their god with reality.

  • freemindfade
    freemindfade

    Little_Socrates there are lots of reasons not to believe in god. To not believe in the paradoxical character who is supposedly like a loving father and at the same time totally fine with having front row seats to mass human suffering, that's sort of different.

    Suffering is not the conclusive evidence against the yhwh desert god. But it's definitely a strike against the claims made about him.

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