Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One 754 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • cofty
    cofty
    It's better use of one's time than debating whether there is a loving deity or not that can or won't or can't alleviate suffering

    It's not either-or.

    They would rather argue over issues to ignore the fact that they aren't doing anything

    Who are you talking about specifically and how do you know that?

    The amount of time, money and energy that is put into alleviating human suffering is greater now by many orders of magnitude than in any time in human history.

    Suffering - specifically "natural evil" proves conclusively that the god of christian theism does not exist.

  • cofty
    cofty
    Defender of Truth - Very good article. Succinct, well argued and excellent format.
  • defender of truth
    defender of truth

    Caleb:

    "They would rather argue over issues to ignore the fact that they aren't doing anything. "

    I am doing something to help prevent suffering of animals.

    Now then, this is an excellent point:

    "The only convictions that need to be changed are the ones that tell you that beliefs are more important than actions and that we need to alter other people's minds instead of doing something to make the world a better place."

    I could not agree more (in principle).

    Jehovah's Witnesses are just one religious group that promote and spread such harmful and life-wasting convictions, that someone's charitable works and care for defenseless creatures are irrelevant if they don't share the same religious beliefs.

    Atheists and agnostics can discuss their beliefs with anyone, without fear of offending an imaginary deity, or being slaughtered at Armageddon.

    Jehovah's Witnesses cannot even discuss how their loving God can care for his creation and yet allow animal suffering. Not without fear of Jehovah and his coming judgement. There is always a thought stopping response like "who am I/who are you to question God"..

    This thread is here to help people to think about the God they are devoting their lives to, and the God they would die for, or cut off all interaction with their loved ones for.

    Is it logical to believe in the construct of a loving God that has allowed animals to suffer, and go extinct even, for billions of years.. Take a look at the evidence.

    More to the point, is it logical or sensible to shun family and friends or die for this loving, personal theistic God, who surely does not exist?

    People whose lives, and even close family relationships, revolve around their religious beliefs, need to be given the chance to at least take a look at this issue.

    Freedom of mind, freedom to think and act as you want to, and freedom from religious doctrines that control so many of mankind..

    That is my dream.

    Then the whole of mankind can focus on the really worthwhile goals of, as you said, making the world a better place and working to prevent suffering.

    Millions of JW's, and their children, will never even have the mental freedom to change the world for the better, or dedicate themselves to worthwhile charitable works.

    Threads like this one are here to help people think, to perhaps encourage some towards freedom from religion, or at least freedom of mind.

    I'm sorry if you feel that the thread was a waste of time.

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth
    It wasn't my work, Cofty, but I wish it had been.
    It's like a Quick start guide to the whole topic.
    Here it is again for any just joining us:www.jwbeliefs.com/jehovahs-witnesses-believe-animal-suffering-and-death/
  • TerryWalstrom
    TerryWalstrom

    If this world were created. . .

    and the Creator was benevolent . . .

    then this is the best world that Creator could produce.

    The fact that it is not the best of all possible worlds can only mean one thing.

    The Creator we have is deficient.

    If this world was not created. . .

    violence between life forms is merely a reflection of a struggle for survival by

    whatever means are necessary and possible.

    It also means ethics and morality are idealistic constructs rather than sacraments.

    Mankind does good when it can because it can imagine the advantages, rather than doing good because it is commanded from an invisible, inaccessible realm from beyond.

    Goodness is a luxury barely afforded to those with advantage bestowed by being at the top of the local food chain.

    Where there is Peace by agreement it is only possible when predators are kept at bay.

    The history of our planet informs us, such possibilities or advantages never last for very long. Nature is too invested in competition among species to expect goodness or peace to prevail.

    All societies which have experimented with equality, fairness, and altruism have been surprised at their downfall when inevitably it arrives.

    Neither fairness nor justice is a part of the fabric of our universe.

    We ignore this at our own peril.

  • TheWonderofYou
    TheWonderofYou

    Why So Much Pain And Suffering In The World?

    Einstein said, “Everything that the human race has done and thought is concerned with the satisfaction of deeply felt needs and the assuagement of pain.” This is the pleasure/pain principle. It applies to virtually all life, albeit in very rudimentary form in single-celled creatures. It is fundamental. Humans and other creatures born without the functional pain apparatus of their peers, do not live long. Clearly, without the capacity for pain and suffering, the evolution of life would not and could not happen. Certainly all higher life forms including humans would not have had even a remote chance of coming into existence. Suppose there is a God, and s/he created the world pretty much as it is (as per the Christian fundamentalist view), except there was no pain and suffering, and all danger had been removed for all creatures. Wouldn’t it be a dull and boring place? Would there be any reason to strive for anything?

    Fred Pauser, http://www.science20.com/what039s_true_reality/why_so_much_pain_and_suffering_world

  • TheWonderofYou
    TheWonderofYou

    ANIMAL SUFFERING, EVOLUTION, AND THE ORIGINS

    OF EVIL: TOWARD A “FREE CREATURES” DEFENSE

    by Joshua M. Moritz

    Abstract. Does an affirmation of theistic evolution make the task

    of theodicy impossible? In this article, I will review a number of an-

    cient and contemporary responses to the problem of evil as it concerns

    animal suffering and s uggest a possible way forward which employs

    the ancient Jewish insight that evil—as resistance to God’s will that

    results in suffering and alienation from God’s purposes—precedes the

    arrival of human beings and already has a firm foothold in the nonhu-

    man animal world long before humans are ever tempted to go astray.

    This theological intuition is conferred renewed relevance in light of

    the empirical reality of evolutionary gradualism and continuity and

    in view of the recent findings of cognitive ethology. Consequently, I

    suggest that taking biological evolution seriously entails understand-

    ing “moral evil” as a prehuman phenomenon that emerges gradually

    through the actions and intentions of “free creatures” which—as evo-

    lutionary history unfolded—increasingly possessed greater levels of

    freedom and degrees of moral culpability.

    Keywords: animal morality; animal suffering; cognitive ethology;

    evil; evolution; the Fall; free will; theodicy

  • TheWonderofYou
  • TheWonderofYou
    TheWonderofYou

    Did God Make Animals Suffer in Evolution?

    Video interview with biologist Jeff Schloss, Westmont College


      Excerpt: Sentient suffering is a hard problem for theists to solve. The 'free will defense,' that privileges and blames human choice, claims to cover moral evil. But what about natural evil, such as animals being killed or eaten alive continuously during the process of evolution before humans? Shouldn't egregious and relentless animal suffering count against God?

    http://www.closertotruth.com/series/did-god-make-animals-suffer-evolution

  • TheWonderofYou
    TheWonderofYou

    Man's Search for Meaning …..Discovering the meaning of suffering in context with meaning of life

    The question was whether an ape which was being used to develop a poliomyelitis serum, and for this reason punctured again and again, would ever be able to grasp the meaning of its suffering. Unanimously, the group replied that of course it would not; with its limited intelligence, it could not enter into the world of man, i.e., the only world in which the meaning of its suffering would be understandable. Then I pushed forward with the following question: ‘And what about man? Are you sure that the the human world is a terminal point in the evolution of the cosmos? Is it not conceivable that there is still another dimension, a world beyond man’s world; a world in which the question of an ultimate meaning of human suffering would find an answer?”

    Viktor E. Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning

    Source: http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/516361-the-question-was-whether-an-ape-which-was-being-used

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logotherapy#Discovering_meaning

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