"Feeling sorry for yourself" about being hit by your husband is not Christian 2/15/12 WT Page 25 P 12

by yourmomma 449 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  NewChapter

  Jesus disagreed with the law in several instances. Many of the laws were written while taking into account the people's hard-heartedness.

  So then was Jesus saying----on account of your hard heartedness, the father allowed you to beat slaves to death---as long as they lingered---rape women and then buy them from their father---commit genocide? Look---that hard heartedness excuse only goes so far. Yeah---okay---they can marry a couple of wives cuz they are hard hearted----------but RAPE, MURDER, GENOCIDE???? To allow for hard heartedness? Please don't use such an excuse with me again. AND JESUS WAS IN COMPLETE AGREEMENT WITH HIS FATHER!

  NC
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  ShadesofGrey

  It wasn't rape in that scripture. I got sick of hearing about it so I looked it up... it was "defiling her" as in taking her virginity.

  Jesus openly stated that he was changing the law.
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  donuthole

  Allowance does not equal endorsement.

  Lots of activities were carried out in the Bible and claimed to be from God -- it doesn't make it so anymore than the Watchtower's utterances.

  Jesus had a very high view of women and did not endorse abuse. (Even uncommonly so according to the gospel writers.)
  
  I would even argue that Paul valued women and saw them as his fellow workers and he spoke about the equality of the sexes that existed in Christ. My take on him is that he understood that there was a certain norm in the world at the time and it would be best if Christians did not upset the apple cart by rebelling against norm and law.
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  flipper

  There are over 8,000 views of this thread after 15 pages.There needs to be 7 million copies of this thread printed out and mailed to every Jehovah's Witness on the planet . Unless JW's lurk here it would be the only way to see the 99 % of great comments by you awesome posters. This is a serious social abuse problem which needs to be broadcast at the highest level making people aware . Inside AND outside the JW organization
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  sabastious

  I think this is an interesting story to describe Jesus view of women:

  Matthew 15 - 21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

  23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

  24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

  25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

  26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

  27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

  28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

  So here Jesus is depicted as not wanting to help this person because she was not among the "lost sheep of Israel" not because she was a woman. Jesus was put in a particular time and space for a reason and it wasn't to heal everyone who asked of it. According to this scripture his mission apparently included something to do with gathering "lost sheep." This woman was persistent, however, and because of that it intrigued Jesus enough to throw out a riddle. Something that he knew would be meaningful to her.

  He calls her a dog to her face and it doesn't phase her at all. Maybe she had been treated like a dog all her life? In any event her reply was incredibly intelligent and it impressed Jesus enough to give her something that didn't necessarily belong to her. He healed her sick daughter, no small feat. It was a gift that was not given to many people. How did the families that did have kids that died feel? Would they feel left out by Jesus? Healing the sick is a slippery sloap at best.

  This account shows Jesus' trust in the intelligence of humans not just women. I believe it also shows that Jesus treats woman and men equally. She could have become angry about what had been said or she could become sheepish about it. "Oh, I'm sorry that I thought a dog like me could get the bread of children." She could have said something like that and went on her way, but instead she started debating with him and he could do nothing but grant her request. She was right, if a God falls out of the sky and his crumbs can heal her sick daughter she was OK with that.

  -Sab
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  RosePetal

  A male dominated society did exist in Bible times, and haven't we seen an abuse of a God honouring headship arrangement. Pauls letters and his dicussion of various subjects are often hard to understand even the apostle Peter admitted that, Paul had a lawyers mind. Bible scholars are uncertain as the whether Paul was married or not, but being a pharisee the chances were high that he was or had been. Ephesians makes it clear that a wife's role is to be submissive to her husband but the husband is to love his wife as his own body.

  However, is Ephesians 5 v 26 saying that a wife is only holy if her husband loves her? Certainly any married or single Christian woman would disagree with that. I can't help feeling that Paul was using the relationship between Christ and the church to highlight the precious relationship between himself and the church being the saviour of that body. However was paul indicating that the husbands headship saves his wife? This would contradict other scriptures. a woman is honoured made or presented holy by her husbands proper treatment of her, but if the Holy Spirit is indwelling within her already i.e. called to faith, she is already holy, this again would contradict scripture if it were not so. 2cor 11v2 paul says how he would like to present the congregation there, a chaste or pure virgin to Christ, did that mean it was paul making them pure or just hoping to present them as pure? In eph 5v30. just after paul refers that husband and wife are are members of Christs body.

  In Ephesians 5 v 31 Paul then speaks about the husband and wife arrangement before the fall. But is was not the husband and wife arrangement paul thought was a mystery, but it was the revealing of the church, that was the mystery that blew pauls mind that was only alluded to in the hebrew scriptures but now was made manifest by the Holy spirit and in the new testament to come. However the main thread of this topic was should a christian wife submit to continued abuse by her believing or unbelieving husband? Was paul really saying yes she should? or is that the interpretation of only an cultist mind or of a chauvinist society? Womens roles in society today is undergoing many changes, many of these changes are for the good, even in the church women who are part of the congregation are rightfully enjoying more respect and their activity is honouring God.
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  sabastious

  I would even argue that Paul valued women and saw them as his fellow workers and he spoke about the equality of the sexes that existed in Christ. My take on him is that he understood that there was a certain norm in the world at the time and it would be best if Christians did not upset the apple cart by rebelling against norm and law.

  Why do you place Paul in this objective position in history? Also, Paul never had a wife which speaks volumes about his ignorance to women in general.

  1 Corinthians 9 - 3 This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4 Don’t we have the right to food and drink? 5 Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas? 6 Or is it only I and Barnabas who lack the right to not work for a living?

  Paul could have had a wife, but chose not to. He was like the Queen of England, married to England, but insead he was married to his Christian movement.

  -Sab
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  sabastious

  However, is Ephesians 5 v 26 saying that a wife is only holy if her husband loves her? Certainly any married or single Christian woman would disagree with that. I can't help feeling that Paul was using the relationship between Christ and the church to highlight the precious relationship between himself and the church being the saviour of that body. However was paul indicating that the husbands headship saves his wife? This would contradict other scriptures. a woman is honoured made or presented holy by her husbands proper treatment of her, but if the Holy Spirit is indwelling within her already i.e. called to faith, she is already holy, this again would contradict scripture if it were not so. 2cor 11v2 paul says how he would like to present the congregation there, a chaste or pure virgin to Christ, did that mean it was paul making them pure or just hoping to present them as pure? In eph 5v30. just after paul refers that husband and wife are are members of Christs body.

  Oh the relentless piety! Paul's bigotry lives on through your words. Who cares if the scriptures contradict? Is Biblical congruence a preconceived goal of yours? You gotta stop looking at Paul's letters as anything more than the words of the first religious dictator of Christianity. Of course he wanted to present the church as a shining beacon of purity. He was a dictator and dictator's live vicariously through their people. It's all about control and the vain pursuit of perfection.

  -Sab
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  insearchoftruth

  Here is one response from a local agency who deals with domestic violence.

  Thank you for sending us the link to this section in Watchtower Magazine. Too often we hear from women that they stay in an abusive relationship because they have been advised my there faith leader or quote scripture from religious readings. I will be sure to share this article with staff, so that we can stay current on what women are being told by their faith leaders and organizations. I appreciate you taking the time to send this article.
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  Gayle

  insearchoftruth,, that is great to get that response,,I hope this issue builds,,if enough, hopefully could go to media level.