So non-creationist - what do you think of those who still accept creation?

by AK - Jeff 66 Replies latest jw experiences

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  Caedes

  There is the issue of internet forum based discussions being a little more feisty than most debates anyway but I think the main problem is that generally there is a huge gulf between what most atheists feel about theists and what an individual atheist feels about a particular line of argument.

  There is a poster on this forum who insists on posting the most meaningless drivel on every thread on the subject of atheism and evolution without ever posting anything of worth, this particular poster gets quite a bit of stick for this. Does that mean that they deserve it for being a theist? No, clearly they get called an idiot for being incapable of rational argument. I personally will happily tell someone they are talking bollocks if that is what they are doing, but I fully respect peoples right to believe what they wish.

  Theists and creationists have to expect to be called upon to back up their claims just as I would expect to be asked to back up my claims. My experience has been that generally, creationists fail to respond to such requests (unless you are counting 'bwahahahahaha' as a coherent response ) Based on that I find creationism (at least in the fundy YEC and ID brigade forms) to be a less than intellectual stimulating worldview and I have little time or patience for anyone who subscribes to such shallow egotistical nonsense as invariably the same people are usually incapable of adequately describing the theory they are arguing against.

  However with all of that said I am fully aware that science is incapable of 'disproving' god and as such I have no argument other than Occam's razor against a god that kickstarted the big bang or abiogenesis, it's just a shame that the razor is rather unmerciful to supernatural creatures.

  So I have no problem with creationists other than their propensity for talking rubbish on subjects they don't understand, other than that they're great!
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  Gopher

  I do believe that others though - some of whom do not share the Christian/Judeo/Islamic opinion of God as creator, also may accept that evolution is not correct. Does one depend on the other - or can one perhaps just conclude without a holy writ as base?

  Creationism begins with the assumption of a creator deity, and works back from there. Hence we see non-scientific displays like the Creation Museum passing their ideas off as true science.

  If "others" accept evolution is not correct, do they do so upon intuition or instinct, or do they base it on the scientific method?
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  lonelysheep

  My thought is that you and I have different outlooks on how we got here.
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  lonelysheep

  I think intelligence of the person is separate from intelligent thought/reasoning. I do not think creationists are less intelligent people but I do think that creationism is a form of less intelligent thought/reasoning.

  I agree with your point and wish to add to that, that scientific facts can be tested over and over again (or an attempt if there are no such 'facts' yet). What can be tested with any regards to creationism other than faith?
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  Open mind

  Hello Jeff,

  Rodney King here. (Can't we all just get along?)

  If a person wants to believe in a supernatural "first cause" that's fine with me. I went from believing in God with my brain and gut, to not believing with my brain but still not being able to shake the "gut" belief, to only recently, being totally free of "belief" in a higher power with both my head & gut.

  Doesn't make me a better person. It's just where I'm at.

  As I mentioned in a thread the other day, I think the variety of beliefs here on JWD is a good thing for newbies to see.

  Open Mind
• 

  BFD

  It was pretty easy for my mind to give up the concept and belief in God. It's not so easy for my heart. I believe one day with my heart and the next day my mind tells me not to believe. Then I feel an empty space in my heart. I am like a f*cking yo-yo and most days I try not to think about it at all but I can never get away from it.

  When I first learned the truth about the truth and started my own journey for "truth" a very wise poster told me not to get lost in the mire. When I find myself in the mire I just let it all go because nothing, I mean nothing really matters to me. Whatever it is, it is. I just want to be a good person and help others when I can. I appreciate the beauty all around me and if I feel like howling at the moon, I'll howl at the moon.

  I am still trying to wrap my pea brain around Journey-Ons thread. Great read that one is. Very thought provoking.

  To answer your question, Jeff, my feelings are to each his/her own.

  Peace.

  BFD
• 

  B_Deserter

  "No firestorms please. But be honest. Do you think that we are of a lower level of intelligence than those who accept evolutionist' theories?"
  
  I don't think creationists have a lower level of intelligence for the same reason I don't believe the great religious greek and roman scholars were unintelligent. I think a lot of the people that identify themselves as creationists really haven't thought about it that much. I think religion in general gets undue respect. It's taboo in many public circles to criticize or debate someone's religion. I don't really understand why that is. Creationism I've found is based on ignorance, the "I don't understand how it could have happened without God, so therefore God did it" mentality is confusing. One day Christianity will go to the mass grave of obsolete Gods and it will merely be viewed as another amusing mythology.
  
  What I do think is that Creationists are intellectually dishonest with themselves. It is the same cognitive dissonance that kept me in the Witnesses for most of my life. I think that deep down, we all know there probably is no God out there, that it's all just an invention to explain the (as yet) unexplainable. The reasons for believing so are incredibly flawed. Many feel that agnosticism is the only proper way to think about the subject. I've found however that since most agnostics don't live their life praying and practicing the rituals of a certain religion or even thinking about God all that much, they're really just Atheists in a practical sense. They don't believe in any certain God but accept the possibility. Atheists are on the same boat really, its just that we think about God in the same manner we think about faeries or Santa Claus. Atheism is not the belief that there is no God, it is merely the lack of a belief in God. We don't believe in God because we see no good reason to. Very few if any will say emphatically that there is absolutely, positively, no possibility of God existing. I think a lot of people think we do say that, and that's a problem.
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  manhasbecomelikeoneofus

  i dont think creationists are stupid, just fearful and lazy. its not a warm fuzzy feeling one is left with when the concept of a big guy in the sky watching out for us is removed. it takes courage to live life to the fullest without dogma controlling ones every move. and if ANYONE, i dont care how brainwashed, would just put down their bible for a couple of days and pick up any middle school biology text book the overwhelming mountain of evidence concerning natural selection would be evident. the only hope of argument creationists have is if they blatantly deny carbon dating, an established technique, NOT a theory. i just recently read a study done by a couple of scientists who have lived on an island in the galapagos for thirty years. they have documented cases of visually evident adaptation in the beaks of birds over their time spent there. beaks lengthen in times of lack of food to better access the limited supply of insects and shorten when food is plentiful. all taking place over a period of decades not millenia. and all documented for your perusal if you can break away from thousands of years of power-hungry priest class propaganda. i think its just plain lazy to not investigate the copious scientific information available to anyone who bothers to look. as for a previous comment regarding faith being an evolutionary function i recommend the book the god gene by dean hamer. rather than an evolutionary compulsion towards faith, superstition comes from the successful breeding history found in any sociey/tribe with the protection of shared belief. the safety of a group of like believers made for higher birth rates and lower infant mortality. we all share these common ancestors and the hardwired dogma passed down to us. we all share the genes of the superstious monkeys who came before us. i however, choose to let information rather than compulsion dictate my beliefs.
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  Backed away

  Ultimately, regardless of where you stand on this issue, none of us can prove or dissprove GOD's existance.

  For every cuddily puppy, there is a scorpion. For every beautiful sunset or water fall, there is a tornadoe, earthquake and hurricane. For every smile there is a tear, for every birth there is death. We can speak of the order in the Universe, yet it's littered with debris hurling thru space, comets, asteriods from objects dying out, exploding or running into each other. Yes it's wonderous, but far from looking like the handy work of all knowing,limitless intelligence who doesn't make mistakes. Or...dying stars, planets forming, asteriods belts are GOD's way of order.

  While I find myself believing less and less in a GOD, I keep my eyes and ears open to the debate and appreciate the dialogue found here.

  For me it currently comes down to two things, If you believe in a creator, then death,disease should be his to explain, if you don't believe, imperfection all around isn't a mystery. Our current condition based on Adam and Eve's actions still makes no sense at all, to me that is.

  Secondly, I've asked myself if the Bible could of been written today and I keep coming back to... No.

  It's funny, the Bible was written during a time when people would believe almost anything, It should of been written today with science and all the dialogue to prove or dissprove It's validity firsthand. Sadly and why we debate it, non of us were there.

  Wouldn't all of us like to read about currents events that include new languages formed out of building a tower, the sea being parted to allow former slaves to escape or fire from the skies destroying cities and people turning into salt. Or Nephilim and Angels appearing, speaking or killing armies all by themself, just think of the debate then? This just in... Man walks on water.

  There are two sides to every fence so this too will continue...
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  changeling

  You can believe that:

  1- There was no creator.

  2-There was a creator who started things off and things evolved from there.

  3- The Bible account is accurate and factual.

  Those who choose number 3 either have no knowledge of science (they are uneducated or are isolated from sources of information), or they suffer from cognitive dissonance (they are intelligent and have access to info but to not believe the Bible's account scares them).

  Just my opinion, don't shoot me...

  changeling